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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 12:02:45 GMT
Wait...what is this 'outside' you speak of? What is it the side of? Is it the side under my computer desk?
I have some thoughts about Redwall, I will post some things I took away from it here when I get chance. Its not full on Snark, more just musings and how its different to Harkovast.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 25, 2016 12:07:22 GMT
Redwall has its faults, but its rather fun. Gotta love the badgers.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 12:31:44 GMT
badgers are a great animal. More anthropomorphic characters should be badgers in my view.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 13:10:17 GMT
Okay so episode 12 of season 2 of Knights of Justice is all about sexism. And its kind of astounding. To get into this castle they need the help of Lady Elana, who is the only one who can get through the secret magic entrance. One of the Knights says taking a chicks is a bad idea (in what is admittedly a funny line another one tells him "Now you sound like you belong in the 6th century.") So Elena gets her own suit of armour and is going to help them do the mission.
Now I know what you are thinking, this is kinda laying it on a bit thick and cliche. Elena is going to be really bad ass and prove them all wrong. But its a positive message at least.
Well not on this fucking show! Elena is totally useless! She has to get helped by Arthur in the first battle and then when they get into the castle she refuses to stay behind the Knight that is with her, and steps forward only to be easily thrown asside by Viper and held hostage by Morgana! She gets free but then Morgana threatens to blast her so the Knight she is with has to surrender, getting them both captured! She is literally a complete liability! During the final battle she FINALLY contributes, throwing her sword to her dad to do the fighting for her and then throwing a snow ball to distract Morgana.
The knight who said she shouldn't come apologises at the end...though I have no idea why as she was completely useless and her over confidence in her none existent abilities made the mission more difficult then it would have been otherwise. If she had stayed back and done what the men told her, they would have had an easier time of it.
I've seem some ham fisted anti-sexism messages in cartoons, but never one that accidentally gave the OPPOSITE message before.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 13:10:58 GMT
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 25, 2016 14:16:40 GMT
I vaguely remember this show.
I think part of the problem, but not the only problem, is it appears they may have altered some of the plot points. Merlin says "Arthur and the knights are no more." at one point, suggesting they are dead instead of merely captured. One of the bad guys happens to cry out "Arthur lives!" when the new guys show up. That would be an odd thing to say if you had him captured and knew full well he was alive. What probably was supposed to happen was Arthur and the knights all fell in battle. The network prolly didn't want to open the show stating that they were dead and had them change some of the dialogue. It might also explain why they never bother to rescue Arthur and the knights.
Of course that makes it even weirder for Guinevere, since they're not only hiding the fact that her husband is dead, but they set her up with a clone of him.
You know what made GI Joe great? They managed to have tons of characters and you knew who they all were. There were dozens of them and even today I could prolly name most of em if you showed me an image of them. The characters in KAatKoJ are all wearing the same uniform when you meet them, so the only thing that really sets them apart is their head shape, hair and possibly skin color. None of which you can see when they are wearing the magic armor. So you have no clue which character is which. And frankly, it doesn't matter. There's nothing that really sets them apart. They're all football players so they all have the same skill set anyway. The show comes off like an initial concept that needs a major overhaul, but instead they started animating.
Try this on for size instead. Arthur is still king, but his knights have all fallen in battle (or were captured, if we're being squeamish). Same basic start, the castle is under siege. There's nobody to defend it except Arthur and Merlin. They need more knights, but there's nobody left in the castle who is capable. In desperation Arthur demands Merlin use his magic to call forth warriors, but the spell doesn't work quite right. Instead of warriors it pulls athletes from our time period, and not all from the same sport. This way you can have an extremely diverse group of characters with all different backgrounds and skills. You have an American football player, an *ahem* regular football player, a hockey player, a basketball player, a baseball player, golfer, volleyball player, tennis player, etc. Of course these new "knights" are not even close to what Arthur asked for. What's more, they all don't even get along with each other at first. The football player having an issue with soccer being called "football", the rugby player chiding the football player on the helmets and pads, etc. They do start to accept their situation when they notice all the people who are stuck inside the castle with nobody to defend them. Merlin enchants their sports equipment (making them look super cool and medieval with neato magic abilities) and they go out to fight the enemy. After some initial difficulties they find ways to compliment each other with their different skills and teamwork so they win the day.
Is it perfect? No, but holy shit it's better. It also allows for female characters not to mention different ethnicities.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 14:38:47 GMT
OH yeah, good called about the censorship. If Arthur was dead a lot of what was happening would seem less strange. Its still got problems but its at least a little better. Thats a really good insight.
I also think what you say about it needing a rewrite is very true. The idea of a mix of skills is going in more the right direction, since it makes the team more varied then "oh look, ANOTHER big football jock, what a surprise."
If we had different sports represented we could have people from different countries as well, so we can't make them even more distinctive. Making them sports related knights is bizzare but I kinda like it. There is at least a logic to whats going on. In the actual show its wierd but meaninglessly so. Everything is just thrown together and odd. A knight knocking projectiles at people with a magic hockey stick at least has some internal logic to it!
I was glad to see you comment on this thread Wordweaver, I thought this seemed like the kinda thing you would have some insight on.
I can tell those words burn like hot ashes in your throat!
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 25, 2016 15:37:42 GMT
I was thinking the hockey player would have enchanted skates too that froze the ground underneath him to skate on. It could melt as soon as he passed so as not to be a bother to his teammate behind him, or he could allow it to stay to hinder the opponents if he so chose. Aside from the football player the hockey player would be the heaviest armored and probably be front line. The football player would be a linebacker, and would basically be a living battering ram and just plow through opponents. The golfer would be long range mostly, smacking rocks with his enchanted driver that made the small rocks turn into huge boulders mid flight. The volleyball player would prolly be one of the female characters. She would have the ability to jump super high and spike her ball to create mini earthquakes when it struck the ground. The "football" player would be fastest moving and kicking a spiked soccer ball around that his enchanted shin guards prevented from causing injury to himself. The baseball player and the tennis player would have both defensive and offensive roles as the baseball bat and the tennis racquet would be able to bat away incoming projectiles. The baseball player would have the "heater", a fiery fastball he can throw, and the tennis player would have the "iron ace", a served tennis ball that hits like a steel projectile.
There would also be "team abilities" where they combine their skills. For instance, the baseball player could throw the heater and the tennis player could smack it and end up with the "iron ace heater" attack.
What the hell, man! Now I'm putting way too much thought in this. Thanks a lot.
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Post by TempestFennac on Dec 25, 2016 16:17:07 GMT
There's a major issue with your idea, Word; it sounds compelling and has logic to it. I don't think the demographic this show was going for cares about those things.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 25, 2016 16:39:57 GMT
I think this could have a good pro sport/physical activity vibe to it for kids to learn from. The idea has some social value....unlike the actual cartoon whose onlyvalue is giving me ironic laughter. I like the idea of hockey skates making ice to zoom aroudn on, that would be good.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 26, 2016 1:58:55 GMT
I think this could have a good pro sport/physical activity vibe to it for kids to learn from. Not only that but it could highlight the benefits of teamwork and hard work as well as some lessons about tolerance. Plus it might also appeal to kids outside of the US as there might be a character that they can actually relate to. If the hockey player has ice powers it would prolly be a good idea to give all the characters a different "element" their powers draw from. Y'know, like in typical 80's early 90's cartoon fashion.
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