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Post by StyxD on May 17, 2015 8:39:38 GMT
I think I do get it, and it chills me to the core. There are millions of people like that where I live, and they're mostly in control. I swear I didn't mean to rhyme, but I don't care enough to rephrase it at this time. RED_NEDYeah, that's true, the soundtrack is phenomenal. Much, much better than Bastion (the devs' previous game also praised for the music). You can enjoy it completely separately from the game. The only negative thing I have to say is that I still can't tell the damn songs apart (unless it's something with lyrics). The soundtrack is available officially on youtube. zaealixI don't get what you mean. I think most postulates of feminism are quite simple, really (the theory, on the other hand...). It's just that conservatives require both contempt for others and an absolute belief that their way of life is the only right one so that they can feel good about themselves. Hence MRAs feeling oppressed by the stupidest shit. I gotta say, I haven't watched enough sitcoms to get your metaphor, either!
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Post by zaealix on May 17, 2015 12:52:32 GMT
Well, to break it down... Sitcom angry wife=says this is wrong you should fix it! over and over, but won't necessarily offer advice on HOW to do that.
Conservatives-I'm not gonna touch that, I don't deal with those enough to not feel like I'm guessing/relying on sterotypes.
And to be honest, this is arguably less about feminism and more about talk of 'representation' in general, representing women in a reasonable way, representing races in a meaningful way, etc, etc... I think it tends to be 'louder' with feminism since well...Race is something that can quite frankly, not even enter into the equation half the time, or vary depending on culture. But the woes feminism speaks of, as far as I've seen, are semi-universal, I think?
But basically... Feminism to me, tends to have complaints that run across these lines: 'Why is her costume so revealing? Chainmail bikini!?! That's worthless as armor! Oh sure, the spy runs around in a form-fitting catsuit. Totally not meant to be eye-candy. Oh great, this awesome lady's gonna end up losing all her awesome to let this common shmuck be the hero, again with this.'
Now, granted, there are some legit points, but in other cases there are reasonable counters. To revisit one of them, the chainmail bikini idea, the concept there might be a perferance for dodging and utilizing agility instead of armor. But too often it feels like it's a case of 'your miliage may vary'-what one person finds acceptable, another person finds offensive. Like referring to a Zadakine as a Zado to her face, as opposed to saying that to your non-Zadakine buddies. That happens quite a bit, and honestly part of me wonders if the only way we'd be able to figure out a decent compromise would be to have a focused sitdown/collaboration with artists/designers of both genders across all genres.
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Post by Canuovea on May 17, 2015 18:59:18 GMT
I think that one reason for the roadblocks feminism runs into nowadays is that they basically say: "No, this isn't good. You are contributing to the problem because of your beliefs, actions, and preferences. You might not mean to, but we aren't dealing with (for the most part) problems entrenched in law. We are now dealing with culture and cultural narrative. How culture and society play themselves out is far more entrenched than any law."
But a lot of people don't like that. They don't like being told that their society isn't actually that great, or that they are doing bad things or contributing to the problem. Why do they not like that? Because people don't like accepting blame or being told they are morally at fault (whether they are or are not morally at fault is beside the point).
I think the Feminists are right. There is a lot wrong with how our society structures and enforces gender and gender roles on both sides.
That all being said... my opinion rant incoming: You brought up chain mail bikinis. I hate those things. There is no reason for anyone ever to wear one of those things. None at all. They offer almost no protection really. They're just there to cover up the naughty bits while baring as much skin as possible. A woman in one of those might as well not wear anything. Actually, it would be better not to wear anything, because chain mail is made of metal and having metal rubbing up against nipples is a bad life choice. Never mind that it would be even more uncomfortable if the metal got cold on such a sensitive area. That would be terrible for men, never mind women whose nipples are generally more sensitive.
And that's just the nipples.
I'm also not sure how the mail stays in place. That stuff is heavy, and most depictions of mail bikinis have them held up by string. Even if we're talking leather straps, you'd have to strap that shit in tight... which would be incredibly uncomfortable. Mail is normally held up by a good solid belt around the waist that can take a lot of the weight resting on it, making it appear lighter then it actually is. The bikini variant lacks this. Ironically enough, actually, now that I think about it, given that women tend to have more defined hips then men, the belt method for holding up proper mail might be even more effective with women.
So it isn't comfortable, it offers essentially no protection, and hence makes no sense to wear even if you are relying on being agile in a fight instead of wearing proper armour. I cannot grasp why someone would even want to depict someone else wearing it. Well, aside from sex appeal, I suppose, but it breaks immersion for me really quickly and makes me feel icky.
Then again, I have a problem with boob plate too. It weakens the armour and provides a nifty little catch region for swords and maces that want to break the sternum. But that is a rant for another time.
Just to reiterate. This is my personal opinion on the matter and it doesn't overly bother me when other people disagree with me on it.
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Post by Horsie on May 17, 2015 19:06:59 GMT
They have a point with cultural problems, but more often than not I hear complains about how society is at least subconsciously sexist, but without any suggestion about what to do.
Maybe I've just missed the articles that have made suggestions, but I think that if people are going to say that cultural norms have to change (something a lot of people won't like), it might make it easier if they made suggestions, otherwise people might get the impression that they're being told that they're wrong and have to change, but are being left to figure out what they're doing wrong and how to deal with it on their own.
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Post by Canuovea on May 17, 2015 19:25:09 GMT
I think a lot of it operates along the idea of: "Make people aware of the cultural problems and how they contribute to them. Once they are aware they will then try not to contribute to the problems because people are at heart good." At least in some cases. And we've seen how well that doesn't work. With a lot of people, anyway.
Once that doesn't work, though, things get nasty and people start arguing over moral imperatives and such.
Though there have been suggestions made and some implemented. Step one is getting rid of the official roadblocks like rules against women serving in front line combat roles. Step two is preventing or implementing penalties for discrimination. For instance, making it so that men and women are paid the same for the same work. Step three is attempting to equalize things, like giving both men and women paid parental leave (the idea that only women need get parental leave, often unpaid, is itself a gendered cultural problem). That can be done at a more institutional level and can address cultural problems.
But getting people to stop catcalling women on the street? Cultural problems like that are the more difficult ones. They really rely on convincing people that they just shouldn't do it themselves.
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Post by StyxD on May 17, 2015 19:51:30 GMT
Fixed that for you.
As for chainmail bikini, you're missing the point. It doesn't matter how well it's justified in-universe. It's one and only reason to exist is fanservice for the viewers. You could replace with any more reasonable armour which does not make the female character into a sexual spectacle.
Scenes and motifs like that are usually fairly obvious. If it's sexy but there's no reason for it to be, it's fanservice. And usually exploitation, since our current popculture is not known to be especially subtle.
Yes, there's YMMV involved, but to say that "you can't please all feminists so you might as well not try" is a fallacy. Especially since feminists usually point out problematic motifs, not say how a given work should be changed to fit some rigid quota of representation.
As Can said, it's about making people aware of the problems and hoping that they improve on them because they mean well. Culture change, as it is.
And really, can you give some examples where feminists are not clear about what should be done? In all your examples, the message was basically "those things are shitty, don't do them in your works". What's confusing about that?
Renard, you too, if you please.
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Post by Horsie on May 17, 2015 20:00:43 GMT
I can't really give any examples, I tend to avoid this stuff because the MRA types give me a headache, so it's usually articles that I read in the newspapers, or in magazines.
Just forget I said anything, as I said, I usually try not to read about feminism or the anti-feminism "movement" because there's too many misogynistic idiots giving their paranoid opinions, so what I've seen has been admittedly pretty limited.
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Post by Canuovea on May 17, 2015 20:11:56 GMT
I agree with StyxD about it being fanservice. Then you've got to ask "what is wrong with fanservice?" I mean, I think there is something wrong with it on a few levels. Especially if it detracts from the story. But also just because it is objectification. And so does objectification of fictional female characters lead to, reinforce, or reflect the objectification of real women? I think so, personally, which is problematic to me.
But others have no problem with objectification, of themselves or others, apparently.
I've also heard an argument that fictional characters are completely under the control of their author, and so have no say, consent, or power over the situations they are put in or how they dress or are portrayed. As such, they are being exploited. I'm not particularly comfortable with that argument, as fictional characters by definition have no actual agency or power in any way.
That all being said... in terms of not being specific in what feminists want people to do to solve the problem... when you say something like: "The patriarchy is the problem, down with the patriarchy!" there can be problems. "Okay." Someone might say. "A) What is the patriarchy? B) How do we bring it down? And C) Why should we anyway?" It seems vague to some who are not aware of the implications of the word and/or the general context. It (sometimes) works fine amongst feminists, but not as an argument to non-feminists.
Or something like: "Women aren't portrayed as good characters in their own right. We need more diverse female characters in our fiction." The thing to do is obvious there. People who are writing should try to include more female characters. However, this can be complicated by: "But men can't really ever understand women enough to write from their perspective." Which is something I've heard from feminists (and non-feminists actually) before. And in a situation like this, there are those who ask: "Why do we really need more diverse female characters?" Sometimes it can be tough to answer a question like that in the moment without falling back on jargon like patriarchy.
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Post by Harkovast on May 18, 2015 1:28:47 GMT
zaelix I have to agree with StyxD, if you don't know what feminism is about or what its goals are you haven't talked to any feminists yet. The idea that its vague complaint like a naggy wife in a sit com is...probably not the best metaphor you could have chosen.
You seem to be implying people get into trouble for being sexist, but don't know what they did wrong, at least that is what it sounds like. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean. I am really with StyxD on this that your point does not seem to make sense.
Again, if you are unclear on feminist positions, talk to some feminists rather than assuming that if you don't know what they want, what they want must be secret or unclear. It's worth noting that there is no universal "feminist opinion" that everyone who is a feminist has, but you could at least get a general sense of things.
Chainmail bikinis are silly, trying to act as they make sense for any reason other than to get the viewers off is kidding yourself. If you wantto move quickly, why does wearing a heavy metal bra and panties that wiegh more than normal clothes help wiht that? Why are those the key areas, of all your body, that need armour when the rest of you can be naked? The point is to make the woman look hot. Let's not kid ourselves about whats going on.
Now if people want to look at sexy girls in bikinnis made of chainmail, more power too them. People can get off however they want, its all good. But when all the women only ever get sexy armour while the men dress normally, what you are making is kinda sexist. Now if its just meant to be spank fodder, then fair enough. But if its supposed to be a proper story, it might be worth reconsidering what you are doing.
The thing with sexist stuff is that its not bad in isolation, its bad as part of a trend.
Just like there would be nothing wrong with a black guy dying first in a horror movie...if it didn't happens in LOADS of horror films. Making all the women super hot and dress all sexy in one show would be fine in theory....but when you look around and see all the shows seem to be doing that, you have a problem.
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Post by Harkovast on May 18, 2015 1:30:47 GMT
Renard I think its unrealistic to expect some kind of general universal solution to big social problems like sexism. Like poverty, class divides, racism or a whole bunch of other stuff, if there was a single clear solution we would all already have done it.
Its not realistic to expect to fix these things. As canuovea said its more about making people aware so these things can be deminished.
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Post by Horsie on May 18, 2015 2:28:18 GMT
Okay, then maybe it's a problem with me. Making me aware of problems doesn't usually spur me to do anything.
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Post by frostwolf on May 18, 2015 23:54:53 GMT
I should go see Mad Max soon...
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Post by frostwolf on May 20, 2015 4:00:01 GMT
So I saw Fury Road, and I think I see where these...men rights people...are coming from. I don't agree with them in the slightest, but I get it.
Mad Max barely talks in his own movie, that and the main cast is mainly women. The guy to woman ratio is incredibly unbalanced, and honestly I feel the movie could have done well without Max there.
I still find the movie to be very very action packed, though the non action scenes had me picking at a scab on my thumb.
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Post by Harkovast on May 20, 2015 18:15:36 GMT
Haha yeah MRA's are great. Movie after movie after movie is almost entirely males, but sexism against women is a myth. Someone makes one movie with more women than men.... MISANDRY!!!!!
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Post by Horsie on May 20, 2015 20:59:29 GMT
I'll have to see this at some point, I've heard nothing but good things.
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