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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2017 2:30:27 GMT
The originals didn't say being a jedi was about being emotionless. I remember Obi Wan telling Luke to trust his feelings. It was more of a being enlightened thing, rather than being a cold sexless weirdo.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2017 2:39:34 GMT
IF we are going to get into people winning for the jedi by using the Sith way of doing things...what about Obi Wan? When Qui-Gon fought Darth Maul he did all that calm jedi shit...and got his ass fucking murdered.
Obi-Wan yelled like a maniac and totally wailed on Maul and did way better, breaking his sword in two and then eventually breaking Maul in two as well. Obi Wan in a bad mood wa more effective than both himself being calm AND Quin-Gon at the SAME TIME.
Lesson learned...Jedi teachings are bullshit. The dark side makes you win.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 2, 2017 3:35:35 GMT
Hmm, Yoda and Obi-Wan got a bit of a bitch slapping by the result of the Clone Wars.
You will remember the "your feelings serve you well, but they can be made to serve the Emperor" line. That is a far more nuanced position. But you can see where that position evolved from the dogmatic bullshit of the prequel Jedi. There is also the influence of Qui Gon Jinn, who basically told the council to go pound sand up their ass on several occasions. Jinn figured out how not to stay dead and taught this to both Yoda and Obi-Wan... presumably resulting in their stances moderating somewhat (though Obi-Wan was already a bit different from standard Jedi since he was Jinn's student). Jinn also made use of the trust your feelings line in the first prequel film I think.
Part of the problem with the prequels is that they don't entirely make it clear that the Jedi Council believe something different from the remaining Jedi in the original movies and you have a hard time realizing that the Jedi Council are the problem. I did get the sense that Mace Windu (ie, bored Sam Jackson) was an asshole though.
Also Hark, not sexless... they can fuckity fuck fuck as much as they wantitty want want. They just can't feel attachment to the person they're fucking... or any resulting offspring.
As for Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul... actually, overall I think that shows the dynamic excellently. Anger and hatred is all very well, but it is a shortcut. In the Phantom Menace Obi-Wan gets all juiced up on rage... and then gets his ass kicked. Sure, the duel ends with Maul cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit, but Obi-Wan ends up in a really bad position because he lacks clarity and focus. Only when he calms down and assesses the situation is he able to focus and exploit Maul's arrogance (and Obi-Wan's trait of 'ignores the high ground when attacking') to jump up and chop him in half.
Basically Obi-Wan matched Maul for a bit because of the Dark Side, but ultimately won because he got his emotions under control and was able to garner some clarity. Controlling one's emotions is good. Suppressing them, though, I would argue is bad.
When Darth Maul comes back in the Clone Wars (yes. Yes he does, and its actually... good?) he proves difficult for Obi-Wan to deal with. Obi-Wan is usually a defensive duellist, but Maul is good at provoking him and making him angry, which results in Obi-Wan becoming less controlled and then generally getting his butt kicked.
However... when Maul confronts Obi-Wan in Star Wars Rebels, Maul is still emotional, bitter, enraged, and just typical Dark Sider. Emotionally uncontrolled. Obi-Wan... well, he's Alec Guinness Obi-Wan. Older, wiser, and more at peace with himself. I'm going to post it, then after you all watch it (if you do), I'll explain what I like about it.
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2017 3:46:19 GMT
They just better not enjoy it! Or not enjoy it! That'll lead you to the dark side, probably!
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Post by TempestFennac on Jul 2, 2017 4:34:15 GMT
You're right about that, Renard. I know it was stated outside the films that the Jedis were basically responsible for General Grevous too due to siding with people who his people were at war with because the other side happened to be worth more in trade.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 2, 2017 4:37:15 GMT
Well, okay, given that the title of the video gives the ending away... I'll explain why I like it.
What I like about this is it was like a duel from a history book, or between samurai, not a flashy bullshit fight from Episode 3. The fight begins before they actually fight, figuring out their positions and motives and planning out what is to come. The outcome is decided before the fight begins by mindset and, of course, by how the characters have moved on and changed. Obi-Wan has grown, matured, but Maul has not. The fight itself shows this in just what happens.
Obi-Wan starts with a stance that is from his super defensive Clone Wars form. Same one he points at Grevious in Episode 3. However, he then switches to the lightsaber besides his right shoulder. This suggests a shift to the form Qui Gon Jinn used. Maul, of course, has seen this before and, just like when he killed Jinn, he goes in for the hit with the lightsaber hilt. When he fought Jinn, this caught the Jedi in the Chinn (snerk), stunned him, and then stabbed him in the gut. Obi Wan, however, was laying a trap. He had come up with a counter (he had changed, developed, moved past his past) and cuts through Maul's saber hilt and into his shoulder and chest. There are a total of three moves in that fight from either side.
Short, sweat, and with meaning.
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2017 4:44:42 GMT
It's certainly a lot less flashy, I'll say that.
It's too bad they didn't really do anything with Maul in the prequels, the guy was presented as a badass, but he only appeared a few times before eating shit in the first film.
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Post by TempestFennac on Jul 2, 2017 4:52:29 GMT
I think he got a robotic spider bottom half in one of the animated Clone Wars adaptations.
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2017 4:56:01 GMT
He could have, I don't know much about the animated series they produced, but it's just seems like they could have done more with him in the films.
Instead we got debates about tax laws and trade, and Jedis having boring discussions about their philosophy (which they conveniently ignore all the damned time, like hypocrites).
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 2, 2017 5:02:43 GMT
Maul was bloody wasted in the prequels. Kinda like General Grievous.
They did a lot with both characters in that Clone Wars TV show. It was very good for Maul, as he became not just a competent fighter but a revenge obsessed crazy person who was nonetheless exceptionally slippery and cunning. And it wasn't very good for General Grievous who, as we said before, went from defeating five Jedi at once...
To being beaten by a padawan (though admittedly Asokha is pretty awesome), some younglings, and a pirate...
Oh, and some Gungans... Suicidal Gungans...
But do not fear! He gets to murder some Jedi too! Like this, uh, this no named, uh... fish dude.
Please note how deeply the green one cares for the death of his former student. The gauntlet of emotions he runs through is truly stunning.
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2017 5:33:56 GMT
You've posted that first one before, I think it's my favourite of those four videos.
One of the Jedi tells Conehead that Grievous' strategy is flawless, that they've never been "outmanoeuvred by droids". Maybe it's because I'm viewing the scene out of context, but his "strategy" seems to be having a massive number of droids advance on the Jedi, all opening fire at the same time, pinning them down. That's not much of a strategy really, and I think saying that the droid are "outmanoeuvring" you is pretty generous when their only method of attack is walking upright straight towards their enemies while firing; do droid ever use cover, or try flank enemies?
The whole time during that fight I'm left wondering how it would play out if the Jedi also carried guns, and then those soldiers show up armed to the teeth and put Grievous on his back foot. Could they have beaten Grievous on their own? No, probably not, but they did manage to put the bad guy on the defensive better than a bunch of magic warriors with laser swords, so imagine if the magic warriors (with their incredible focus, speed, and reflexes) were armed with guns, and used their swords as needed, not as their one and only weapon.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 2, 2017 6:14:33 GMT
I'm pretty sure that the outmaneuvering they referred to happened previously, with the Droids fighting the Jedis' clone armies and out tacticking them. Because Jedi are supposed to also be awesome military tacticians... even when they are clearly not. To be fair to the Jedi, they haven't needed to use guns for ages (though some have used them in some old pre-Disney canon stuff). Grievous is a strange foe to face. Most lightsaber users just send the blaster shots back at you, so you'd not bring one to fight someone with a lightsaber unless you were desperate. The Jedi just stuck with their swords because hey, why use a gun when you could send anything anyone shoots at you right back at them? Either with a lightsaber or the force itself (regular bullets could be redirected with the force)? Grievous, however, isn't a Jedi, he can't hit blaster shots back at an enemy. That means shooting at him isn't idiotic. But with his cybernetic enhancements he can out duel you fairly well even though he lacks Force attunement. Puts Jedi in a bad position where they have to duel him, and they aren't trained to shoot him because they haven't had to fight an enemy like that in ages, so they're not exactly in the best spot when dealing with him. Though even the Advanced Recon Troopers (ARC Troopers as some will call them) are literally the best trained troops the Republic has, they still needed numbers and a heavy gunship to force Grievous to retreat. One might say that a lightsaber in one hand and a pistol in the other would be a good combo against Grievous... and you'd kinda be right, but you probably want more than one hand to deal with the four sabers he can pull out at you. Though there is an instance in Star Wars Rebels of a lightsaber like so: It has a gun in it. That would have been good against Grievous, though he did have armour that could take blaster fire pretty well. In theory. Erm... The short of it is, if the Jedi carried blasters I expect they'd have to discard them quick because they'd need both hands to defend themselves. Though... Do keep in mind that Obi-Wan literally pried the armour covering Grievous' internal organs open with his bare hands before shooting him though. God I'm a giant nerd.
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2017 7:04:15 GMT
I mean more along the lines of carrying a handgun or a rifle, and reserving the lightsabre for close combat, or other situations where it'd be useful. Hell, some of the Jedi could distract Grievous in close combat while the others could line up shots on him (using their magic and Jedi skills to not shoot their own people of course).
Yes, but while the Jedi don't have numbers on their side they do have space magic and all of that crazy Jedi training they make a big deal about, that ought to make an individual Jedi as dangerous as several of those shock troops. If they armed themselves with something more than just a sword they'd have a better chance I think, even without a gunship.
I know that's supposed to be something in the lore, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Assuming they have rifles that have velocities comparable to what you get out of rifles we're familiar with, the amount of time a Jedi would have to use the force to stop a bullet fired from within a few hundred yards could be measured in tenths of a second; if the Jedi doesn't see you lining up your shot and you're at least somewhat competent with a rifle, you too could be a Jedi hunter.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 2, 2017 10:18:26 GMT
Well, they'd need training to properly use the things. But the lightsabre also keeps them safe from shots fired at them, so I imagine that was their priority. Still, you've got a point.
The thing is, blaster bolts shouldn't be able to be redirected either. But here is the trick, the force seems to give them a premonition. Regular bullets would still be better, though, because lots of Jedi aren't as good at force powery stuff as they are with a lightsaber, and lightsabers don't send bullets back at the shooter. But their force bullshit would allow them to know someone is about to shoot at them, and then use their magic voodoo to stop the bullets... but only if they are skilled/powerful enough. Vader has stopped a grenade exploding in midair and crushed clone heads at the same time... but he is Vader. And Kylo Ren held a blaster bolt in mid air. So if they had a force premonition they could stop physical bullets and then redirect them. But most Jedi would no doubt react with trying to block with their lightsaber first, since Jedi are stupid.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2017 11:28:36 GMT
You know one day, if I turn off my targeting computer and trust my feelings, letting the force be my guide... I will manage to post something on this forum Canuovea doesn't disagree with.
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