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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 2, 2016 13:25:13 GMT
I'm not sure what's available for centrefire that has a similar weight and power to the .22mag. Not much. There's a .22 TCM which is basically a severely shortened 5.56 nato that is designed to fire from a modified 1911. It's powerful for what it is, but has a fat case with a small projectile. You're not gaining capacity, just velocity. There's also the .25 NAA which is a .32 ACP cartridge necked down to accept a .25, but it's only a moderate improvement over the .25 ACP. What I'm thinking of is a straight walled rimless .25 similar to the .25 ACP but with a longer case and more advance gunpowder that pushes slightly better numbers than the .22 Magnum. Something that could work in carbines, SMGs and pistols in super high capacity magazines. Ideally it would push at least 200 ftlb from a standard length pistol and 400 to 500 ftlb from a carbine length rifle. Given the .22 magnum's abilities, I'm pretty sure this is doable. The only major drawback of the round is the supersonic velocity in all weapons make it poorly suited for a silencer. For lack of a better name I'm calling it the .251 Magnum (.251 being the true size of the .25 ACP projectile).
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Post by Horsie on Apr 3, 2016 18:54:45 GMT
If you weren't going to use it in a pistol (or didn't mind a setup like the C96, with the magazine forward of the grip) you might be able to use something like the .22 Hornet. The issue I could see with that as a combat weapon is that you'd have to be careful loading the mags to avoid rimlock.
I finally found a Mauser trench mag in my country, I just placed an order so we'll see how it works with my Kar98K, I've heard that the followers on them tend to be finicky and they work better with modified FG42 followers, but we'll see. Centrefire magazines for semi-auto are illegal here if the capacity is greater than 5rnds, but it's A-okay to have a 25rnd mag on a bolt-action that sends 197gr rounds downrange at 2600ft/s.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 3, 2016 21:38:01 GMT
What about a magazine that can be used in either a bolt action or a semi auto? Ruger makes the American Rifle in .22lr bolt action that uses the same mags as the 10/22. If you promised to only use it in a bolt action are you allowed a 25 round mag?
The closest military equivalent to the round I'm proposing is the 5.7x28. It fires a .25 cal projectile and works in pistols and SMGs in very high capacities. The round I'm thinking would basically be the same case length, narrower, and fire a heavier round nose projectile. The overall length would be shorter, it would be lighter and could stack more (about 25% more) in a mag of the same equivalent size. My round would have poorer long range capabilities but would hit harder in close range. It might have some military use but I'm thinking it would be primarily used as a self defense round to offer high capacities in today's popular lightweight, slim profile pistols. So a pistol like the Ruger LCP, which has a capacity of 6+1 rounds of .380 ACP, would have a capacity of around 12+1 of .251 Magnum since they would double stack in the same given space. The .251 Magnum would also have similar energy output to the .380 so there wouldn't be a stopping power vs capacity issue.
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Post by Horsie on Apr 3, 2016 22:14:30 GMT
The capacity restriction only applies to semi-auto centrefire rifles and shotguns, not rimfires or manually operated firearms (and the M1 Garand, because it's special). For example I saw a deal a little while ago from one supplier where they'd sell you a .22cal Pedersoli PPS-50 and throw in a 50rnd drum mag for half price. Pistols have a 10rnd maximum capacity, so I can actually have a 10rnd AR mag if it's marked as being intended for an AR pistol. When it comes to using mags in firearms they weren't intended for it gets a little complicated, it's something of a grey area.
I actually have two mags for a .308 Lee-Enfield made by Australian International Arms, for all intents and purposes they're a 10rnd M14 mag, just marked as being for use in AIA rifles, and they're missing the small, square hole in the front of the mag that's supposed to interact with the part of the op-rod that pokes through into the M14 mag well. Because they're marked as being for the AIA rifles, and they don't have that little hole, I can use them in an M14 or Springfield M1A.
However, it's illegal to load a .40S&W mag with 9mm if I put more than 10rnds in it. If I bought a .40S&W mag for a CZ75 I could legally own it, I believe I could legally load it with 9mm too, but if I put more than 10rnds in it I could actually be charged with a crime.
They've also banned .50 Beowulf mags completely for a similar reason. They're basically a standard AR15 mag and even use the same follower, but you can load 13 or 14 rounds into a pinned 5rnd Beowulf mag, and I believe the 10rnd Beowulf pistol mag would hold 30rnds of 5.56mm. So the Beowulf mags are illegal even though I believe the uppers are not.
It would be useful for an SMG too.
I'd like it if there were a few more 5.7mm pistols available, it sounds like a decent round.
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Post by Horsie on Apr 4, 2016 0:45:12 GMT
Just watched a video of testing Second World War 8x57mm and 7.62x54mm explosive rifle ammunition against ballistic soap. The entrance wounds when they start getting effective detonation in the block (at about 9minutes) is the same as a regular rifle round, but after a couple of inches it ends up creating a cavity you could fit both of your fists inside. www.full30.com/video/82efb579fd3c93d177205966ef3d3c9d
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 4, 2016 8:53:22 GMT
That's pretty horrific damage. I'd imagine if you got hit center mass it would not only leave a huge crater in your chest but it was also liquefy your organs and shatter most every bone in your body. Hell, the concussive effect might even explode your skull without a direct hit to the head.
I was surprised that they didn't speculate beforehand that there would be a delay in the detonation. When they first showed the block they were gonna shoot I thought it was way too thin. Ballistic gel is cheap, explosive ammo is not. I guess they were going by the account of a soldier's hand getting blown off by one, but that could have been accomplished if the round entered the arm at an angle.
I'm guessing if you own a Beowulf you're limited to whatever you can manage to jam into a standard 5 round? Maybe 1? 2 if you beat it in with a hammer?
I wish gun companies would do more with high capacity .22lrs, especially pistols. I understand rimfires don't like to stack nicely in mags, but you'd think someone would come out with something. Most everything is single stack, even the high capacity drums are just a single stack in a circle. I'd like to see 20 round mags on pistols that didn't comically stick out the bottom like a 32 round Glock mag.
That's part of the reason I'm pushing for an improved .25.
I'm only aware of 3 pistols on the market that take that load. The FN Five-seveN, which is incredibly expensive. The Excel MP-5.7, which is affordable but doesn't take advantage of the round's ability for high capacity. And the MasterPiece Defender 57DMG, which is butt ugly (they redesigned it this year, it's slightly better in the ergonomics department but still butt ugly).
I've heard some rather unflattering things about the round, mostly because the 23 to 31 grain bullet is very anemic in a pistol. It was designed for the P90, which has a rather long barrel due to it's bullpup configuration. The Five-seveN was developed as a sidearm (and an afterthought) to the P90 to use the same ammo, even with the nearly 5 inch barrel it doesn't do the round any justice.
My .251 Magnum will have a 50 to 60 grain bullet. Twice the weight. While it won't have quite the same velocity, the additional wounding capability of the heavier round will make up for that.
(Yeah, I know. I keep banging on about this idea)
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Post by Horsie on Apr 4, 2016 15:58:44 GMT
I'm really not sure what you're supposed to do with a Beowulf upper now. I think there are a handful of other firearms that are legal, but have illegal magazines. I know there are plenty of firearms that are illegal, but the magazines are legal (I can't get a Bren or AK, but I can get magazines for them, as long as they're pinned to 5rnds).
I forgot about the Excel, that'd actually be ideal for me here since we're restricted to 10rnds for pistol mags. A carbine would probably be better though, you're right. The only problem is that 5.7mm ammunition is like hen's teeth.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 4, 2016 19:15:57 GMT
What's the point in pinning a mag that you can't own the gun for? The Excel pistol is very interesting to me even with the 9 round mag limit. It has an 8.5 inch barrel, which would get it close to the 10 inches that the p90 SMG has. There are a bunch of countries in the world that consider the p90 sufficiently powerful for military use, even though on paper the numbers are inferior to 9mm in similar configurations. But the 5.7x28 can penetrate body armor and for some reason that's a huge deal for the military. Cuz they're always fighting terrorists wearing body armor I guess. The Excel rifle has an 18 inch barrel, which would make it the most efficient 5.7 available. You could probably get speeds around 3500 fps out of that gun, maybe more with hand loads. It's also designed to take AR set ups and they look really cool with AR sights. 5.7 ammo is starting to get surprisingly affordable since even just 2 years ago. It's getting down to around the same cost as .22 mag ammo, 20 to 25 bucks a box. It's not all over the place, but it is available.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 5, 2016 7:46:23 GMT
So I saw the lack of double stack pistol mags for .22lr as a challenge and came up with a solution that I think is simple enough to actually work. A magazine that is just two single stacks of .22 side by side. The magazine would have a toggle on the top that only allowed rounds from one stack to feed at a time. Once the follower reached the top on one side it would trip the toggle to flip open the other side and continue feeding rounds uninterrupted. So a pistol like the Walther P22... ...could have a 20 round capacity (instead of just 10) with only minor changes to the dimensions of the grip. If the toggle is designed well enough the magazine should be as reliable as any standard single stack. I also considered a rotating toggle that switched the feed from one mag to the other between each shot, but reasoned that something like that would wear out in short order. While I was at it I also designed a firing pin that should improve the reliability of rimfires measurably, but learned that the Russians already had it. A two pin system that strikes the rim on opposite sides at the same time in case one happened to fall on dead space on the rim.
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Post by Horsie on Apr 5, 2016 8:10:23 GMT
Actually the AK mag makes sense because we have Type-81 rifles and the occasional SKS designed to take AK mags, but I haven't a fucking clue with the Bren mag. Anyone who has a functional Bren gun either has a license for "prohibited devices" (which they haven't issued since the 80s, and even back then you were more likely to get struck by lightning than get it), or has an illegal weapon, and chances are that someone who has an illegal weapon isn't going to have any qualms about knocking a rivet out of a magazine.
Unlike the Excel pistol I just do not like the carbine, it reminds me of that little Beretta 9mm carbine, and I think that's ugly as sin too. I'd be interested in a AR15 carbine chambered for 5.7mm, but unfortunately trying to look up any info on that just gets me stuff about the AR57, which is a top feeding upper that uses P90 mags (can't get those), and seems to have mixed reviews. I'd like an AR with a traditional layout chambered for that round, I bet it'd be slick.
I don't know, it seems a bit complicated to me, and the mags would be pretty pricey I'm sure.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 5, 2016 8:40:39 GMT
I've seen the AR57 uppers, it's interesting but a bit wonky looking. I do like that it spits the shells down the mag well, which would make it super easy to collect the brass. There's gotta be someone that makes the 5.7 in a more standard setup, might give it a look.
I've handled the Excel rifle before and was pleased with how nice it felt. It was light and compact and felt very balanced. If 5.7 wasn't 40-50 bucks a box at the time I might have bought it. But I'm the type to like the space ageie looking stuff.
My magazine idea would have more parts. Two followers, two springs, and the toggle. But the toggle wouldn't have any springs or anything, just a hinge pin that it swung on freely, the shells on one side would prevent it from opening until that side was empty then the tension of the full side would swing it over and out of the way where it would recess into a slot on the first follower. The toggle would also serve as a guide for each magazine to prevent the shells from bunching up at the top. It would be more expensive than a standard mag, but folks routinely spend more for higher capacity mags.
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Post by Horsie on Apr 5, 2016 8:58:46 GMT
I'd be interested in building a second upper in that calibre.
I like my traditional rifles, it took me forever to warm up to the idea of an AR15 specifically because it looks far more modern than anything else I have.
Fair enough.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 5, 2016 9:08:23 GMT
Wait, I think I have a far simpler idea, but I have to check something first. I think Kel-Tec might use the same thing on their PMR-30.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Apr 5, 2016 9:23:42 GMT
No, they don't.
Here's the idea, same basic concept far simpler idea. One follower, one spring. The follower has a slot in the middle and a divider that is attached to the base plate of the mag, giving us two single stacks that won't bunch up on each other. The follower is staggered so one side is lower than the other, creating staggered mags. When loaded only one side can feed in at a time and the stagger ensures that they feed equally from both sides, hopefully without jamming.
That make sense?
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Post by Horsie on Apr 5, 2016 15:37:40 GMT
Yeah, that makes sense.
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