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Post by Harkovast on Jul 1, 2018 23:53:28 GMT
That's a lot of words to say that people have different opinions on art and there is no one diffinitive objective truth about art. I mean what he's saying is technically true, but its also kinda pointless. Like going "well all opinions are valid and that's just your subjective view point" is just a conversation killer. Clearly we can talk about art and discuss it's merits because we keep doing it. I mean someone is allowed to think The Room is the best film ever if they want. I saw the guy in this video discussing his video in a response to a couple of other guys and it bascially came down to that he thinks all views are valid so there really isn't anything to discuss. Like you can't say a movie is good or bad. It just seems like a dead end to me.
If Last Jedi wasn't a star wars film but was otherwise basically the same the movie, I would still hate it. To me it was just a bad film. Just that opening battle made me feel embarassed. Stupid jokes, weak impotent villains, none sensical behaviour from the characters. It starts the film by making clear the bad guys are less scary than saturday morning cartoon bad guys. Though if it wasn't a star wars film the refight of the Hoth battle woudl seem even stranger... The movie just has too many problems to over look, in almost every aspect of the plot, characters and structure. Even the special effects start to get shakey in the Canto Bite sequence. The film is tonally confused and seems to contradict its own message. A lot of people came out saying in reviews that the movie is all about letting go of the past, and quoting Kylo. But Kylo is the baddie and Rey rejects what he says about this. And she preserves the Jedi books at the end...so I guess the past is important? I'm not sure if jedi books are important or not...but then I'm not sure why Ghosts can now shoot lighting from the sky. There is some kind of message about Poe being too gung ho and independent nad how he needs to settle down and blindly follow authority...even when the authority is giving seemingly insane orders.
I'm such a total asshole, I even didn't like the fight with the red guards. Yeah, I am that bad. It was too choregraphed, it felt like stage school fighting. The guards kept flipping around and spinning instead of all attacking. if they hadn't kept pissing around they would have won easily but they were desperate to give our heroes a chance for some reason. The armour on their arms could block light sabers, but the rest of their armour could not...poor design there, lads. My main problem was that it wasn't at all exciting. The heroes just killed the main baddie, there was no way his no name mooks were going to kill anyone now. It was just more useless imperial canon fodder. It was one of the better bits of the film, I will grant that, but it still wasn't very good.
And the whole "he's look the other way so hes looking back" feels like reading way way too much into the scene. I have no idea what he's even talking about saying that Rose is giving Luke a eulogy by talking incomprehensible mottos while being proved wrong in the entire rest of the film. I hated that Luke died thinking about the two suns of his home planet. He's wishing he was back on Tatoine! So at the start he wants to get off the planet and go have adventures...then by the end hes a sad depressed old man who wishes he hadn't bothered.
basically, to me, Last jedi is sort of a perfect bad film. I've kidn of come to respect it. I honestly don't think I could make it much worse without making it seem like a parody. As one reviewer said "there is a dark purity to its perversions". I guess that's why people are still talking about it.
(Though Mark Hamil was excellent.)
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 0:59:22 GMT
Here is an article that talks about the current situation.The title is a bit sensational, but I think it gives a reasonable summary of how things are at the minute in the actual text. A point it raises, that I think i've mentioned, is that words like "divisive" and "subversive" are probably not what you want attached to your big tent pole block buster. The fighting the fans bit is also something we've talked about. When the fans don't like it, scolding them and calling them names isn't the best way to win em back. Edit Oh and by coincidence this one mentioned kennedy going. Seriously, it's sayign that EVERYWHERE these days!
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Post by Horsie on Jul 2, 2018 1:07:54 GMT
Careful StyxD, I now know you're Polish and you've been to Croatia!
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 1:18:32 GMT
I had to watch it in the cinema! I don't deserve such treatment!
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 2, 2018 5:42:56 GMT
I just rewatched TLJ.
I guess I just wanted to look at it again after seeing so many varying perspectives on the movie I forgot which ones were my own.
Also I think I hate myself.
What I had forgotten was just how ADD the movie is. It simply doesn't stop doing things. Nothing slows down. If it does slow down, there's an immediate wipe to another scene. You can't absorb the characters, the universe, or anything. It has no patience for telling it's story. Everything feels unimportant because the scenes treat them as unimportant. Just things that have to happen to get to the next scene. A two and a half hour movie that never stops to breathe for a moment. If it tries to drop an important message in your lap it is immediately undercut by rushing right into the next scene without letting the audience or even the characters absorb it.
So even things like Luke dying feel weightless. So much so that the characters in the movie feel the need to reiterate that fact for us. "Luke's dead" "Yeah, I know." So do we. That happened 5 seconds ago. Thanks for sharing that insignificant moment with us-- oh, you're on the next scene already.
It's like it was written by a 12 year old.
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Post by StyxD on Jul 2, 2018 8:14:38 GMT
My thought is, if people are havng to write articles about why you shouldn't be fired...you might be in trouble Naturally, I would love to be so popular that people would clamour for me being not fired! I find the tone of this article way off. It's normal for articles to weight good and bad that happened under a producer's tenure (like the Fool article linked later) but this article directly addresses Disney to make a certain decision. Why would a journalist from some random site be so invested in Disney's HR? Unless we've reached the "I'm with her" stage again where if you have liberal views you're duty-bound to support Kennedy no matter what. Brilliant. CanuoveaI really liked the video! It was very informative. However I think the conclusion was flawed. The video seemed to me to retread the tired argument "you didn't like it only because you disagree with what they did with Luke." The theory behind this one seems solid, but it dismisses all the other problems people bring up. Yet again. Using the same method you could argue that fans of the movie like shooty boom lasers and tokenism, and made up the rest of the good points in their heads. And then we concluded the discussion getting nowhere. And probably strawmanning. Careful StyxD, I now know you're Polish and you've been to Croatia! That's… hardly distinctive to any degree. Look, if you wanna come over to visit, you just need to ask.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 8:25:51 GMT
Wordweaver What is sort of amazing is that so much stuff goes on in the film but nothing actually happens. Snoke and Luke dying are the only really significant events. Everything else is basically trivial. It is frantic wheel spinning the movie.
You could have reduced this film to the first line of the title crawl of the next film. "The resistance have been hunted by the first order, and suffered many losses." Other than that, did anything progress? Even Rey didn't actually learn anything about the force or get trained. I guess she started to get the hots for Kylo after that awkward comedy about his taking his shirt off (damn...some of the shit in this movie...) She was the best with a light sabre and could do all the force tricks in the last film.
The redlettermedia review said the Leia floating in space scene was acutally a perfect metaphor for the movie. Leia is blown out into space...then flies back again. Stuff is happening on screen, but there is no point to any of it and everyone ends up back where they started.
They started out fleeing the empire in a space ship, and they ended it that way.
I saw a review that was positive of the film that said it was about learning from failure, and how it helped all the characters grow, except for Kylo who didn't learn anything cause he was evil. Now that sounds okay other than...Kylo won. At the end the rebels all grinned like idiots and hugged each other...but they didn't win anything. Meanwhile Kylo was all screaming and angry...but by any measure he won completely. Even Luke didn't really outwit him, as he died anyway. So if he had shown up in person and got stabbed it would have gone down the same way. Kylo doesnt have any failures to learn from so its not that he's bad and doesnt learn anything, its just that he wins becuase everyone else is a jack ass. Though the film ACTS like he failed some how at the end because abotu a dozen people escaped. So people leave the cinema thinking he lost something...though by any realistic measure he didn't fail in any meaningful way.
The whole movie is just lots of sound and fury but there isnt' any point to any of it. It seems like loads is going on but when you stop and think about it, next to nothing of any importance happens. Since everything the characters do fails (both for good guys and bad guy) everyone just potters around for the run time accomplishing nothing of note.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 2, 2018 16:11:52 GMT
The stuff that happens in this movie happens at a fever pitch but, yeah, almost none of it matters or really alters the story. For instance, the entire point of the Space Casino (I don't care anymore) planet was to have the "good guys, bad guys" talk between DJ and Finn. You know where Finn finds out that the "Rebels" also buy weapons from a weapons dealer? The point of that scene (I think) was to highlight that both sides are culpable in making all those Space Casino folks rich and snooty. There's not as big a gulf between the bad guys and the good guys as he might have thought. This never comes back into play for the rest of the movie, it doesn't color any of Finn's actions, it just happens after a big pointless side quest and is meaningless.
Like most of the movie.
What's more is there isn't any sense that any of those weapons dealers are concerned that the war is about to end. They're just laughing and getting drunk while half of their clientele is about to get wiped out.
You know what really would have made the whole space casino thing work narratively speaking? If one of those weapons dealers found out that Finn and Rose were part of the Resistance and offers them technology to block the tracker. Maybe even the same guy that sold the tracker to the First Order. Then Finn and Rose can discover that the only reason they were offered the blocking tech was to prolong the war to sell to both sides. They can have the moral conflict of whether to use the tech knowing it will make the space casino people more wealth, or not use it and doom the Rebels.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 16:43:08 GMT
Well i think having a character raise the issue that people are profiting from the never ending war is kidn of going into dangerous territory. Let's face it, these two sides have been killing each other for over 30 years. Storm troopers bite it by the thousand and the empire keeps blowing up planets. Its a freaking meat grinder of a galaxy.
The fact arms dealers get rich off the war just adds another level of futility to everything. After all this fighting, only the guys selling guns have acutally got anywhere or benefited.
I feel like most poeple in the galaxy consdier rebels and the empire to just be two groups of lunatics. For most average cantina workers or moisture farmers, they just just hope to keep out of it and live their lives. Nothing gets better who ever wins (slavery has been going strong since the old republic, the new rpeublic let it continue with no questions asked as long as you sold them the weapons they wanted.)
Nothing has been achieved in all this fighting what so ever.
They say in force awakens that the forces of darkness always regroup and come back in a new form, and there will always be people resisting the empire's oppression,so its now just killing for its own sake.
I think I touched on this in my review. Rey should have joined iwth Kylo at that point. The battle is pointless, to keep it going isn't heroic, its just a waste of lives.
Look at Leia in the salt base at the end, realising no one in the galaxy gives a shit enough to come help. Everyone just wants done with this mindless carnage.
The idea that both sides are morally suspect is introduced but than dropped just as quick. The empire are just pure evil, its not morally grey or complicated. They are a brutal corrupt organisation that only cares about power and control. The rebels fight against that and are thus the good guys. IF DJ had said this and then been proved wrong by Fin, that would have been something. But he just gets paid and fucks off. Honestly... he kinda wins as well. He gets loads of cash and just goes out of the movie. So I guess he was right? That's not a very uplifting message.
Also I wrote a Rose Tico rap.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 2, 2018 17:11:49 GMT
Also I wrote a Rose Tico rap. Yeah, I read it.
You've put more effort into the character than Rian did.
DJ getting paid pretty much shows the audience that the First Order can be perfectly reasonable, if not a bit naive, which is exactly the opposite of what you want if your bad guy is supposed to be "evil". If the First Order is reasonable than we are left to wonder why Leia has offered no diplomacy in two movies. You come to the conclusion that she hadn't. If that's the case she's just a terrorist.
Rey joining Kylo might have been the saving grace of the movie. At the very least she could have offered to join him if he spared the few remaining Rebels. He seemed pretty insistent on "killing the past", but he might have been satisfied with mortally wounding it. If Rey joined him and Kylo called off the attack, basically end the movie right there, you could have that empty feeling of loss at the end of the movie, BUT you would have things for the characters to do in the next movie. What's more, the audience might actually want to know what was going to happen next.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 19:23:25 GMT
yeah cut the entire hoth refight, and just end with that. Like she says "Okay just stop killing them" And he gives the order and the stop firing. And the rebels all cheer, but Leia thinks something is wrong. Why would they stop?
And then Rey says something like "You're right. There has to be another way" Like she isn't just being black mailed, she actually agrees with him. Then she takes his hand. BAM Credits and star wars music.
Everyone would be outraged, but they would be fucking desperate to know where the fuck this story goes next. Like holy shit, is Rey evil? Is Kylo good? Is the war over? Or has a new battle begun?
Did I mention that I totally misunderstood what happened with DJ the first time I watched it? I thought Dj had betrayed the good guys and the evil empire ball driod went no where. I assumed this because, though it was wierdly structured, it made the most sense. But now I've come to realise is that what actually happened is that evil droid spotted them, and then after they were captured DJ told them abotu the escape pods and was not only immediately released but handsomely rewarded. This is so fucking strange! As far as they know, DJ is resistance (he's working for them, so him claiming he isn't wouldn't mean anything.) I can believe they would give him godo treatment nad not torture him, but to just let him go? He's still an enemy as far as they know! Could Rose have just said she was also not really with the resistance and got let go? Who does that with prisoners? You would think they would hold onto them till Kylo can mind fuck them for info.
So...the republic allows slavery and funds terrorists. It is so badly run and weak that it allowed the first order to build the biggest navy ever and a planet sized super weapon without realising. The First order buys guns from the same evil people as them (for some reason wtih each side buying different weapons...I guess to make it easier for the audience. How considerate.) The first order are ruthless to get what they want, but I dunno if that is worse than the corrupt disinterest of the republic. I mean in the first film when Hux said they allow disorder it seems like he was pretty much right.
It's all so horrifyingly pointless. The entire war doesn't serve any purpose.
The only poeple who win are DJ and the arms dealers who don't take a side and just get paid by both.
Even Kylo is doomed in the end. he wil get over thrown somehow or turn good and die or some shit and then the shit republic comes back till they over throw that again a few years later.
There can be no final victory in any of these conflicts.-
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 2, 2018 20:23:20 GMT
Leia would sense something was wrong, and Luke would immediately realize that he had failed two of his pupils now.
And Kylo says "If we work together, I know we can do it." Echoing a previous film.
Then she takes his hand. Roll credits.
BOOM! We just wrote the most memorable ending to a Star Wars film.
Honestly this is where I thought it was building up to. I mean, the only thing we haven't explored yet about the light and the dark side of the force is the possibility of bringing balance by working together as opposed to against each other. Cuz Kylo isn't saying "come to the dark side". He seemed fine with her being a light user and being at his side. We could have explored an entire gray aria of the force in the next movie.
But no, we have to start all over again.
And the DJ thing only makes sense if the Order was already aware of him or if he was already on their payroll. Like if they had worked with him before and knew he could be useful in the future.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 20:49:29 GMT
No lie, the hardest thing about writing a Rose Tico rap was thinking of things to say. She doesn't actually do much of substance in the movie.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 2, 2018 23:34:24 GMT
And that was my own personal bought-on-clearance Tico in the picture...atop a sneak peek of the next page that is finally nearly done.
You can't be a true Ticopath unless you have your own clearance Tico!
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 3, 2018 0:33:32 GMT
A little sneak peak under a clearance section toy.
I like it.
Out of curiosity, how much did you pay for it?
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