Post by Canuovea on Jan 3, 2015 5:21:51 GMT
I'm just going to start this again. Here is the last review I did on The Hobbit 3.
Azg Nazg Durbatuluk. Azg Nazg Gimbatul. Azg Nazg Thrakatulu- oh, ah, hello. I didn't see you there. Yes, I'm sure you knocked, I've been... busy. Busy attempting to regain my strength from the event which sapped it so.
What event, you ask?
Well, perhaps less a singular event than a phenomenon, in person form. George Lucas. I'll start off with a shady metaphor nobody will care about. If Cameron is Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs, supreme general of the hosts of Angband during the first age), and Jackson is Sauron (Lord of the Ring, Lieutenant of Angband and somewhat similar in standing to Gothmog, lived past the First Age and became the main instrument of evil), then George Lucas is Morgoth, the Dark Enemy, Fallen Vala of greatest power and skill.
Why this comparison? They all accomplished something, then they fell... they fell so far, straying from what had brought them success in the first place. First, and greatest, with perhaps the farthest to fall, was Lucas. Proving himself as perhaps the paragon of the Fantasy genre of film with Star Wars. Star Wars had real actors interacting with real people, with characters that were lovable and who you cared about. Then he made the pre-quels. He managed to make Samuel Jackson boring (an accomplishment rivaled only by M. Night Sham-ylan's spectacular destruction of Avatar). Truly, a fall, and the CGI turdfest that haunts us to this day began with him. Mostly. I think.
Then comes Cameron. He did Aliens and the (first two) Terminator films, which most people seem to like. Sure, he's of somewhat lesser standing in the public eye, perhaps, but those were good movies. Movies which inspired people. And then? Then, my friends, he was seduced by the power Lord Lucas offered him, turning from the light and embracing the scourge that is known as CGI. He made Avatar. Not the Last Airbender One, the other one, with the terrible plot and the CGI which was supposed to replace actual characters, plot, and acting. Much like the sacking of the last great Elven citadel Gondolin, which was Gothmog's greatest triumph.
And now the final one. Jackson, who is without a doubt Sauron, the Deceiver. He made three movies of quality which surpassed everything else of the time, much like Star Wars did. Yet, looking back, even then he was planting the seeds of doom. Viggo Mortensen noticed it, but did anyone listen to him? No. He said that after the first film Jackson started to go CGI crazy. Christopher Tolkien, I think, sensed it coming, as he was not keen on the film being made and has secured the rights to The Silmarillion as best he can. They will get them by prying them from his cold dead hands. But the rest of us? We were all of us, deceived, for three other movies were made... with which Jackson set out to undo everything he had done and accomplished with the first three.
Much like the wraiths it animates, CGI is not real. This is painfully obvious in The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies. And if this trend continues... I fear fantasy as a genre, and perhaps film as a whole, will fade into nothing but CGI... like the wraiths before it.
Oh, without a doubt, Spoilers...
This is not to say that the last installment of The Hobbit trilogy is without its good points. Indeed, there are a few. Feels? Oh yes, especially near the beginning, I felt the feels. Smaug actually doing something was impressive, and even Bard... MacGyvering... a crossbow for the black arrow using nothing but a broken bow, the remains of a bell tower, and his own son was... forgiveable, if stupid.
But... the previous movies had their share of silly CGI fighting... which sometimes worked because, at least in the first one, it was in a scene that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. Because the tone was kind of silly. Okay, so that is fine. But in small doses and the right moments. As soon as it was supposed to be serious and prolonged... it became unbelievable, stupid, ridiculous, and... empty. Very very empty. And that was in the first two movies (mostly the 2nd), but it was broken up. This movie was mostly that. It is called The Battle of Five Armies, after all. So yes, some chills, but... argh.
It was bad over all in that respect. I don't even want to... go into too many examples. It is ridiculous sometimes.
But here is something I actually enjoyed that was made... less... See... Jackson doesn't seem to be able to pull off main villains that well. He's all buildup but no payoff. Anti-Climatic is basically the game here. First it was Smaug being useless and now... it is... Sauron. What should have been entirely awesome and epic was a let down.
Galadriel goes to rescue Gandalf... she saves him, but gets herself magically weakened/drained by Sauron (who hasn't actually appeared yet). There are at least words being said, so yay. But... okay... then Saruman and Elrond show up and fight a bunch of clearly CGI ringwraiths (who look like they apparently used to before being totally corrupted... and wielding a wierd assortment of weapons). The wraiths have little personality aside from their design. But Sauron is still obviously present, so woo. They kill... or rekill, whatever, the wraiths. That is kind of cool, though... actual actors would be better. But sure.
Also, man with rabbit sled takes Gandalf away.
Then Sauron shows up... Galadriel gets all pissy at him, goes into her supersayan bad CGI form, holds the phial at him, says a few things (in English I think, I can't remember, yes), and he is "banished" and flies away. THAT... is... it.
The trailer implied that while Galadriel was out of it, Saruman would try taking on Sauron directly. That would have been great. And more could have happened there. So much more... they built up the confrontation with Sauron with the fight with the wraiths... and then bam, it was over. Let down.
Similar situation with the climactic battle at the end. I know that Hark hated Last of the Mohicans, and I've come to agree with a lot of the criticism... but that final confrontation was built up with such wonderful tension an investment. I still get feels watching that. Very wow feels. There were certain parts of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, the books, and even the movies, had those as well. There was none of that in this final confrontation. Too... unrealistic... to obviously fake... too... ridiculous, silly. It was lacking reality and actual feeling. Or maybe by that point I had stopped caring. I'm not sure.
Also, lots of the plot makes no sense. The decisions... The Orcs get Paul Atredies from Dune on their side, bringing out some giant underground travelling worms because... just because? But couldn't they have just used the worms to take the mountain from the inside? Smash formations? Other stuff? No... they're just a plot device, to let the Orc army show up out of nowhere, put in there for a couple of moments and then never seen or heard from again. Really. They're there and then... gone... like they never were. Oh, and yes, Tolkien mentioned were-worms... but I'm nearly certain that isn't what he meant!
Also... don't trolls turn to stone in the sunlight? No... not when the action/plot demands that they don't because "cool!" Goddamnit! Many such moments.
Also... at the end... Beorn shows up and does... nothing. He jumps off an eagle and turns into a bear to fight orcs. Does this mean he... what... survived? Who knows? Because in the book he does a whole lot more... but in this they just kinda... put him in for no reason.
A final point that has to be said. Jackson wields subtlety like... like... no... wait... he can't wield subtlety at all. It slips from his grasp... like victory from Sauron's, no matter how long his arm has grown. Frankly, this was a bit of a problem in the original trilogy as well.
Original Trilogy. I can say that. Jackson is reflecting his predecessor Morgot- erm, I mean Lucas, that well. And yes, that screed/metaphor at the beginning was supposed to lack subtlety...
It was a let down, or would have been if I expected anything else. But not without some redeeming features. Bilbo was quite good. A few scenes were well put together. And lots of things were nice. Galadriel using the phial that she later gives to Frodo, for instance, was a nice touch. The large powerful orcs that make up Bolg/Azog's bodyguard. Some of the buildup was great. Smaug was actually... impressive for the first time... sort of... Some of the early battle parts were neat and kind of looked a little like Total War (which was awesome!). But most importantly, this one managed to not screw up the themes. Sure, the themes are ham handed, clunky, and you are hit over the head with them like a hammer... but at least they are the right themes. Unlike in the second one.
So I'm actually unsure which I disliked more, the second one or this one. Because the second one totally ruined the main theme of the story. This one saved a secondary theme, but was filled with much more silly CGI. My girlfriend thinks this one was worse...
One... last... minor thing... ELVES! Jackson seems intent on making the elves look like idiots or assholes or something! It annoys me... I... like Tolkien's elves... but I like the Wood Elves less because they're hippy pansies... still.
Additionally... everything I said earlier about the ham handedness and silliness of the love story still stands.
I could say more, but I'll stop.
My final verdict... I'm not unhappy I saw it, it was worth seeing, and there was some entertainment value for sure. But... if you've been passing on the other ones, don't bother. Ignore the critics who say this is the best of the three, they're lying. The first one was the best. It was, in my opinion, nearly perfect until the end which ruined it and hinted at the failure which was to come.
I'll leave you with this... someone who knew how to use giant worms. Though I suppose Azog had to do this too.
Also... here...
And... if you were curious or unaware of that... full movie:
Frostwolf18 Dec 30 2014, 12:36 AM IP: 96.29.12.39 · Post #251
Despite the directions the film did end up taking (and it's not like the original animated film didn't take weird turns since the river elves looked fucking hideous), but I enjoyed it. Then again I'm a simple person when it comes to enjoyment, I like good fights (which there were) and I like a good laugh ("Could you all just sod off!"). Some parts felt off (The beginning was weird to me. Smaug involvement to the plot when he acted was too small).
It seems pretty common now to paint elves as self-rightous assholes (even in the dragon age series, where elves pretty much take the piss), and it's a little annoying. I get how pride can be a very good flaw to use in villains/antagonists, but we can have other flaws.
Though seriously, look at all the recent incarnations of elves (ok not all, but the ones I noticed): Skyrim has a bunch of self-righteous dick head high elves, dragon age has a bunch of dalish elves who live out in the forest, have barely a fraction of their history, and are stuck up to humans (I can imagine being pissy to them, but stuck up? What right do they have? If I didn't try and play the messiah in every game I'd probably hit one of them). Then we have Movie Tolkien elves, which can be pissy (mainly in the hobbit no less) but aren't out to conquor the world at least (Because elves apparently don't have ambition or something...even though the elf king wants his fucking jewels back. Ok, he can want them back, but he did jack shit when smaug came. I don't mean he should have fought smaug, but he had an army with him, he couldn't help refugees?). Can we have less asshole elf factions?
Also, look down at me for what you will. But the elf king rode a stag into battle. A STAG, THAT PICKED UP A BUNCH OF ORCS SO HE COULD CUT THEIR HEADS OFF!
That's fucking awesome, I am sorry.
Renard Dec 30 2014, 03:33 AM IP: 142.177.171.94 · Post #252
Sorry Frostwolf, I don't think riding a big elk can make up for that silly crown he's wearing.
Maybe if he rode a unicorn deer?
Canuovea Dec 30 2014, 03:36 AM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #253
Some of the fighting was good, but not a lot, not in my opinion. Actually, very little. Let me explain.
There was no weight to it. Not only in the "do we really care?" Sense, but also in the "no... suspension of disbelief does not work that way" and "this is clearly all just put in with computers, isn't it? There isn't anything actually there."
For instance. Azog is all like "wait to attack the dwarves..." Then the trolls come out in front of the army, and Azog is like "now attack the dwarves!" And it looks bad for the dwarves, then Thorin and Co. burst from the mountain and the dwarves rally... and those trolls? They fall over. Nothing seems to touch them. They just kind of fall over at the same time. Thorin's shear majesty killed them, I suppose (also, Thorin looks like Ulfric Stormcloak... if there is to be a Skyrim movie... cast Armitage now).
Legolas jumps up falling blocks like a Nintendo character, defying gravity in the process. Tiberia warned me that Legolas had become Mario, but I didn't understand until that moment. Dear god... he even killed Bolg by jumping on him!
I'm pretty sure that Bard killed the same troll twice, the CGI models were identical anyway. Or maybe all trolls just look the same to me.
The Elves hop over the Dwarves. Sorry, they jump on the dwarven shields, and then jump over the dwarves.
Dain complains about where Thorin is... and seems like he's minorly peturbed... then the camera zooms out and he's just standing there... while this giant troll is like two feet away from him... but you just know that the actor had no idea there would be a giant troll there, because he just can't be bothered to worry about it. Greenscreen...
Also, the guy who played Dain hates The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Don't know why they casted the bastard then.
The giant stag thing doing that? I'm sorry, I can't help but look at that and cry. I can see why some think it is awesome... but to me it is just dumb. Maybe I expect a bit more?
I'd like my movies to be a little more believable than video games. In fact, the combat in Skyrim has more umph, more... feeling to it... than this movie had. Don't get me wrong, the combat in Skyrim is horribly unrealistic (at least there is no rolling though... usually), but it feels right somehow. Characters stagger, for instance, and respond to things that happen. In this you know that the actors are just waving their sword props at thin air. This, apparently, made Sir Ian McKellan break down and cry.
Take the final fight. This one I have some beef with, though it had some pretty decent moments. Thorin tricking Azog with his chain mace thing was nice. Loved that, and won't spoil anymore of that... but after that Thorin just becomes too stupid to live. Anyway...
That is the end scene from Last of the Mohicans. Basically... not a great movie... but that scene is wonderfully done. The weight in it is pretty crazy. Just... compare it in your mind. That is what actors interacting with other actors instead of a green screen can do.
Also notice how they don't shy away from the blood and what happens to people? Azog pokes Fili with his little stick arm. Like... kind of prods him and he dies... not all that convincing. Not that we knew a lot about Fili anyway, but Uncas suffered from a similar problem in LotM. They should have at least have him bleed from the mouth, better yet, have Azog slowly shove the blade through him and out the chest. Let Fili twitch a little before sliding him off like he is nothing. Azog is evil, damnit!
Nothing like that happened.
Laughs? They spent a good thirty minutes following Alfred around when he wasn't funny and really messed up the whole tone during the conflict.
But yeah... "Sod off" was pretty hilarious.
Strangely enough... the dragon was probably one of the most effective parts of the film for me, which is strange as I hated him in the second one. Maybe because there is minimal stretching out of this? And I had accepted that the dragon was ruined. Sure, him having a chat with Bard was odd... and Bard building an improvised crossbow was weird, but... overall it was actually quite inducing of awe. When Smaug flew by and ignited a sixth of Laketown, I was like "holy shit, Dragon is actually dangerous!"
Funny how two people can have such entirely opposite experiences, huh? I'm glad you enjoyed it though, I liked it in some ways, but some of those weren't the ways I was supposed to like it. But some things were really good.
Edit: Or even Gladiator, where one guy has been poisoned ahead of time and the Emperor is pretty much a pansy compared to him... so they fight like they're both at least slightly drunk.
Still feels... more...
Harkovast Dec 30 2014, 09:55 AM IP: N/A · Post #254
I am interested.... in reading what you think....about Battle of Five Armies...
But you keep over using...Ellipsis.
It makes...what you are writing...hard to read.
Frostwolf18 Dec 30 2014, 07:11 PM IP: 74.138.51.202 · Post #255
I have a bit of a complaint when it comes to the trolls, or maybe just Tolkien trolls in general.
They were in sunlight. Now I've forgotten if it was trolls or ogres that Bilbo distracted long enough to be hit by the sun, but if it was trolls then there is a serious problem with their weakness. Also why did those trolls have messed up arms? I thought at first they were troll/orc half breeds or something.
And the legolas falling stone scene? Yeah I couldn't buy it, I was smiling when I saw it, but saying "Bullshit". For that to work you need to be moving faster than the stone are falling, which is impossible (I don't care how good his reflexes are, his own weight should have made it a problem also).
And Thorin...good god Thorin wtf why did you stay there?
I enjoyed the fights, but it may have been because I turned off a bit of my critical brain and focused on the combat. I still enjoy the fight, but some stuff I do agree was stupid.
Canuovea Dec 30 2014, 10:16 PM IP: 174.6.92.140 · Post #256
Trolls are supposed to turn to stone in sun. Orcs are less effective fighters in sunlight... they can't really handle it. That was the reason that Sauron had to have Mt. Doom pump all that ash into the air before his armies attacked Gondor.
Basically, it looks like they forgot all that for this battle. It was even established earlier on in the series. Those are the same type of trolls! Olog-Hai do not exist yet.
As for the ... type things, I sort of need them for this, I'm pissed off.
Harkovast Dec 30 2014, 11:01 PM IP: N/A · Post #257
Everyone I know has no real interest in these hobbit films.
Back when it was LOTR everyone was crazy excited and was fired up for each new movie.
But I dont know anyone who was excited for the third one of these.
The second film was just dreadful.
The barrel scene, the ridiculous chase at the end...it made me tired the way King Kong made me tired.
Random shit to pad out the run time.
By the third one its impossible for me to build up any enthusiasm at all.
CGI orcs dying in droves in a swirling green screen nightmare.
What happened to cool battles with real people fighting? Like the amazing running battle at the end of Fellowship of the Ring? When did we stop being allowed to just have people in costume sword fight? Can we not bring that back?
Canuovea Dec 31 2014, 02:38 AM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #258
Hark... that is basically it. The last bastion of that kind of thing is, sadly enough, Game of Thrones. But you've hit the nail on the head.
Wordweaver_three Dec 31 2014, 05:21 PM IP: 104.138.68.86 · Post #259
Trolls turning to stone is pretty standard fare in folklore. The troll in Three Billy Goat Gruff turns to stone when he falls in the water. Makes you wonder why he was living under a bridge that went over water in the first place. Guess trolls are dumb. Sun is the usual culprit.
Though Tolkiens trolls have more in common with ogres than trolls. Typically trolls were smaller. Anywhere from miniscule little smurf size up to dwarf size. D&D ran with Tolkiens idea of giant trolls but nixed the sunlight as their bane in favor of fire. Plus no more turning to stone. Never really cared for their take.
Frostwolf18 Dec 31 2014, 05:57 PM IP: 74.138.51.202 · Post #260
But...those trolls were using a cooking fire.
Can someone tell me that all the things that I saw as trolls in those films (including Lotr) were trolls? Cause I'm getting confused about if we saw ogres or not.
Canuovea Dec 31 2014, 07:46 PM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #261
There are no Ogres in Tolkien. Not that I am aware of... and if they existed, I'd probably know.
Seriously, they really really fucked that up in the film.
Azg Nazg Durbatuluk. Azg Nazg Gimbatul. Azg Nazg Thrakatulu- oh, ah, hello. I didn't see you there. Yes, I'm sure you knocked, I've been... busy. Busy attempting to regain my strength from the event which sapped it so.
What event, you ask?
Well, perhaps less a singular event than a phenomenon, in person form. George Lucas. I'll start off with a shady metaphor nobody will care about. If Cameron is Gothmog (Lord of the Balrogs, supreme general of the hosts of Angband during the first age), and Jackson is Sauron (Lord of the Ring, Lieutenant of Angband and somewhat similar in standing to Gothmog, lived past the First Age and became the main instrument of evil), then George Lucas is Morgoth, the Dark Enemy, Fallen Vala of greatest power and skill.
Why this comparison? They all accomplished something, then they fell... they fell so far, straying from what had brought them success in the first place. First, and greatest, with perhaps the farthest to fall, was Lucas. Proving himself as perhaps the paragon of the Fantasy genre of film with Star Wars. Star Wars had real actors interacting with real people, with characters that were lovable and who you cared about. Then he made the pre-quels. He managed to make Samuel Jackson boring (an accomplishment rivaled only by M. Night Sham-ylan's spectacular destruction of Avatar). Truly, a fall, and the CGI turdfest that haunts us to this day began with him. Mostly. I think.
Then comes Cameron. He did Aliens and the (first two) Terminator films, which most people seem to like. Sure, he's of somewhat lesser standing in the public eye, perhaps, but those were good movies. Movies which inspired people. And then? Then, my friends, he was seduced by the power Lord Lucas offered him, turning from the light and embracing the scourge that is known as CGI. He made Avatar. Not the Last Airbender One, the other one, with the terrible plot and the CGI which was supposed to replace actual characters, plot, and acting. Much like the sacking of the last great Elven citadel Gondolin, which was Gothmog's greatest triumph.
And now the final one. Jackson, who is without a doubt Sauron, the Deceiver. He made three movies of quality which surpassed everything else of the time, much like Star Wars did. Yet, looking back, even then he was planting the seeds of doom. Viggo Mortensen noticed it, but did anyone listen to him? No. He said that after the first film Jackson started to go CGI crazy. Christopher Tolkien, I think, sensed it coming, as he was not keen on the film being made and has secured the rights to The Silmarillion as best he can. They will get them by prying them from his cold dead hands. But the rest of us? We were all of us, deceived, for three other movies were made... with which Jackson set out to undo everything he had done and accomplished with the first three.
Much like the wraiths it animates, CGI is not real. This is painfully obvious in The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies. And if this trend continues... I fear fantasy as a genre, and perhaps film as a whole, will fade into nothing but CGI... like the wraiths before it.
Oh, without a doubt, Spoilers...
This is not to say that the last installment of The Hobbit trilogy is without its good points. Indeed, there are a few. Feels? Oh yes, especially near the beginning, I felt the feels. Smaug actually doing something was impressive, and even Bard... MacGyvering... a crossbow for the black arrow using nothing but a broken bow, the remains of a bell tower, and his own son was... forgiveable, if stupid.
But... the previous movies had their share of silly CGI fighting... which sometimes worked because, at least in the first one, it was in a scene that wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. Because the tone was kind of silly. Okay, so that is fine. But in small doses and the right moments. As soon as it was supposed to be serious and prolonged... it became unbelievable, stupid, ridiculous, and... empty. Very very empty. And that was in the first two movies (mostly the 2nd), but it was broken up. This movie was mostly that. It is called The Battle of Five Armies, after all. So yes, some chills, but... argh.
It was bad over all in that respect. I don't even want to... go into too many examples. It is ridiculous sometimes.
But here is something I actually enjoyed that was made... less... See... Jackson doesn't seem to be able to pull off main villains that well. He's all buildup but no payoff. Anti-Climatic is basically the game here. First it was Smaug being useless and now... it is... Sauron. What should have been entirely awesome and epic was a let down.
Galadriel goes to rescue Gandalf... she saves him, but gets herself magically weakened/drained by Sauron (who hasn't actually appeared yet). There are at least words being said, so yay. But... okay... then Saruman and Elrond show up and fight a bunch of clearly CGI ringwraiths (who look like they apparently used to before being totally corrupted... and wielding a wierd assortment of weapons). The wraiths have little personality aside from their design. But Sauron is still obviously present, so woo. They kill... or rekill, whatever, the wraiths. That is kind of cool, though... actual actors would be better. But sure.
Also, man with rabbit sled takes Gandalf away.
Then Sauron shows up... Galadriel gets all pissy at him, goes into her supersayan bad CGI form, holds the phial at him, says a few things (in English I think, I can't remember, yes), and he is "banished" and flies away. THAT... is... it.
The trailer implied that while Galadriel was out of it, Saruman would try taking on Sauron directly. That would have been great. And more could have happened there. So much more... they built up the confrontation with Sauron with the fight with the wraiths... and then bam, it was over. Let down.
Similar situation with the climactic battle at the end. I know that Hark hated Last of the Mohicans, and I've come to agree with a lot of the criticism... but that final confrontation was built up with such wonderful tension an investment. I still get feels watching that. Very wow feels. There were certain parts of Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, the books, and even the movies, had those as well. There was none of that in this final confrontation. Too... unrealistic... to obviously fake... too... ridiculous, silly. It was lacking reality and actual feeling. Or maybe by that point I had stopped caring. I'm not sure.
Also, lots of the plot makes no sense. The decisions... The Orcs get Paul Atredies from Dune on their side, bringing out some giant underground travelling worms because... just because? But couldn't they have just used the worms to take the mountain from the inside? Smash formations? Other stuff? No... they're just a plot device, to let the Orc army show up out of nowhere, put in there for a couple of moments and then never seen or heard from again. Really. They're there and then... gone... like they never were. Oh, and yes, Tolkien mentioned were-worms... but I'm nearly certain that isn't what he meant!
Also... don't trolls turn to stone in the sunlight? No... not when the action/plot demands that they don't because "cool!" Goddamnit! Many such moments.
Also... at the end... Beorn shows up and does... nothing. He jumps off an eagle and turns into a bear to fight orcs. Does this mean he... what... survived? Who knows? Because in the book he does a whole lot more... but in this they just kinda... put him in for no reason.
A final point that has to be said. Jackson wields subtlety like... like... no... wait... he can't wield subtlety at all. It slips from his grasp... like victory from Sauron's, no matter how long his arm has grown. Frankly, this was a bit of a problem in the original trilogy as well.
Original Trilogy. I can say that. Jackson is reflecting his predecessor Morgot- erm, I mean Lucas, that well. And yes, that screed/metaphor at the beginning was supposed to lack subtlety...
It was a let down, or would have been if I expected anything else. But not without some redeeming features. Bilbo was quite good. A few scenes were well put together. And lots of things were nice. Galadriel using the phial that she later gives to Frodo, for instance, was a nice touch. The large powerful orcs that make up Bolg/Azog's bodyguard. Some of the buildup was great. Smaug was actually... impressive for the first time... sort of... Some of the early battle parts were neat and kind of looked a little like Total War (which was awesome!). But most importantly, this one managed to not screw up the themes. Sure, the themes are ham handed, clunky, and you are hit over the head with them like a hammer... but at least they are the right themes. Unlike in the second one.
So I'm actually unsure which I disliked more, the second one or this one. Because the second one totally ruined the main theme of the story. This one saved a secondary theme, but was filled with much more silly CGI. My girlfriend thinks this one was worse...
One... last... minor thing... ELVES! Jackson seems intent on making the elves look like idiots or assholes or something! It annoys me... I... like Tolkien's elves... but I like the Wood Elves less because they're hippy pansies... still.
Additionally... everything I said earlier about the ham handedness and silliness of the love story still stands.
I could say more, but I'll stop.
My final verdict... I'm not unhappy I saw it, it was worth seeing, and there was some entertainment value for sure. But... if you've been passing on the other ones, don't bother. Ignore the critics who say this is the best of the three, they're lying. The first one was the best. It was, in my opinion, nearly perfect until the end which ruined it and hinted at the failure which was to come.
I'll leave you with this... someone who knew how to use giant worms. Though I suppose Azog had to do this too.
Also... here...
And... if you were curious or unaware of that... full movie:
Frostwolf18 Dec 30 2014, 12:36 AM IP: 96.29.12.39 · Post #251
Despite the directions the film did end up taking (and it's not like the original animated film didn't take weird turns since the river elves looked fucking hideous), but I enjoyed it. Then again I'm a simple person when it comes to enjoyment, I like good fights (which there were) and I like a good laugh ("Could you all just sod off!"). Some parts felt off (The beginning was weird to me. Smaug involvement to the plot when he acted was too small).
It seems pretty common now to paint elves as self-rightous assholes (even in the dragon age series, where elves pretty much take the piss), and it's a little annoying. I get how pride can be a very good flaw to use in villains/antagonists, but we can have other flaws.
Though seriously, look at all the recent incarnations of elves (ok not all, but the ones I noticed): Skyrim has a bunch of self-righteous dick head high elves, dragon age has a bunch of dalish elves who live out in the forest, have barely a fraction of their history, and are stuck up to humans (I can imagine being pissy to them, but stuck up? What right do they have? If I didn't try and play the messiah in every game I'd probably hit one of them). Then we have Movie Tolkien elves, which can be pissy (mainly in the hobbit no less) but aren't out to conquor the world at least (Because elves apparently don't have ambition or something...even though the elf king wants his fucking jewels back. Ok, he can want them back, but he did jack shit when smaug came. I don't mean he should have fought smaug, but he had an army with him, he couldn't help refugees?). Can we have less asshole elf factions?
Also, look down at me for what you will. But the elf king rode a stag into battle. A STAG, THAT PICKED UP A BUNCH OF ORCS SO HE COULD CUT THEIR HEADS OFF!
That's fucking awesome, I am sorry.
Renard Dec 30 2014, 03:33 AM IP: 142.177.171.94 · Post #252
Sorry Frostwolf, I don't think riding a big elk can make up for that silly crown he's wearing.
Maybe if he rode a unicorn deer?
Canuovea Dec 30 2014, 03:36 AM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #253
Some of the fighting was good, but not a lot, not in my opinion. Actually, very little. Let me explain.
There was no weight to it. Not only in the "do we really care?" Sense, but also in the "no... suspension of disbelief does not work that way" and "this is clearly all just put in with computers, isn't it? There isn't anything actually there."
For instance. Azog is all like "wait to attack the dwarves..." Then the trolls come out in front of the army, and Azog is like "now attack the dwarves!" And it looks bad for the dwarves, then Thorin and Co. burst from the mountain and the dwarves rally... and those trolls? They fall over. Nothing seems to touch them. They just kind of fall over at the same time. Thorin's shear majesty killed them, I suppose (also, Thorin looks like Ulfric Stormcloak... if there is to be a Skyrim movie... cast Armitage now).
Legolas jumps up falling blocks like a Nintendo character, defying gravity in the process. Tiberia warned me that Legolas had become Mario, but I didn't understand until that moment. Dear god... he even killed Bolg by jumping on him!
I'm pretty sure that Bard killed the same troll twice, the CGI models were identical anyway. Or maybe all trolls just look the same to me.
The Elves hop over the Dwarves. Sorry, they jump on the dwarven shields, and then jump over the dwarves.
Dain complains about where Thorin is... and seems like he's minorly peturbed... then the camera zooms out and he's just standing there... while this giant troll is like two feet away from him... but you just know that the actor had no idea there would be a giant troll there, because he just can't be bothered to worry about it. Greenscreen...
Also, the guy who played Dain hates The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Don't know why they casted the bastard then.
The giant stag thing doing that? I'm sorry, I can't help but look at that and cry. I can see why some think it is awesome... but to me it is just dumb. Maybe I expect a bit more?
I'd like my movies to be a little more believable than video games. In fact, the combat in Skyrim has more umph, more... feeling to it... than this movie had. Don't get me wrong, the combat in Skyrim is horribly unrealistic (at least there is no rolling though... usually), but it feels right somehow. Characters stagger, for instance, and respond to things that happen. In this you know that the actors are just waving their sword props at thin air. This, apparently, made Sir Ian McKellan break down and cry.
Take the final fight. This one I have some beef with, though it had some pretty decent moments. Thorin tricking Azog with his chain mace thing was nice. Loved that, and won't spoil anymore of that... but after that Thorin just becomes too stupid to live. Anyway...
That is the end scene from Last of the Mohicans. Basically... not a great movie... but that scene is wonderfully done. The weight in it is pretty crazy. Just... compare it in your mind. That is what actors interacting with other actors instead of a green screen can do.
Also notice how they don't shy away from the blood and what happens to people? Azog pokes Fili with his little stick arm. Like... kind of prods him and he dies... not all that convincing. Not that we knew a lot about Fili anyway, but Uncas suffered from a similar problem in LotM. They should have at least have him bleed from the mouth, better yet, have Azog slowly shove the blade through him and out the chest. Let Fili twitch a little before sliding him off like he is nothing. Azog is evil, damnit!
Nothing like that happened.
Laughs? They spent a good thirty minutes following Alfred around when he wasn't funny and really messed up the whole tone during the conflict.
But yeah... "Sod off" was pretty hilarious.
Strangely enough... the dragon was probably one of the most effective parts of the film for me, which is strange as I hated him in the second one. Maybe because there is minimal stretching out of this? And I had accepted that the dragon was ruined. Sure, him having a chat with Bard was odd... and Bard building an improvised crossbow was weird, but... overall it was actually quite inducing of awe. When Smaug flew by and ignited a sixth of Laketown, I was like "holy shit, Dragon is actually dangerous!"
Funny how two people can have such entirely opposite experiences, huh? I'm glad you enjoyed it though, I liked it in some ways, but some of those weren't the ways I was supposed to like it. But some things were really good.
Edit: Or even Gladiator, where one guy has been poisoned ahead of time and the Emperor is pretty much a pansy compared to him... so they fight like they're both at least slightly drunk.
Still feels... more...
Harkovast Dec 30 2014, 09:55 AM IP: N/A · Post #254
I am interested.... in reading what you think....about Battle of Five Armies...
But you keep over using...Ellipsis.
It makes...what you are writing...hard to read.
Frostwolf18 Dec 30 2014, 07:11 PM IP: 74.138.51.202 · Post #255
I have a bit of a complaint when it comes to the trolls, or maybe just Tolkien trolls in general.
They were in sunlight. Now I've forgotten if it was trolls or ogres that Bilbo distracted long enough to be hit by the sun, but if it was trolls then there is a serious problem with their weakness. Also why did those trolls have messed up arms? I thought at first they were troll/orc half breeds or something.
And the legolas falling stone scene? Yeah I couldn't buy it, I was smiling when I saw it, but saying "Bullshit". For that to work you need to be moving faster than the stone are falling, which is impossible (I don't care how good his reflexes are, his own weight should have made it a problem also).
And Thorin...good god Thorin wtf why did you stay there?
I enjoyed the fights, but it may have been because I turned off a bit of my critical brain and focused on the combat. I still enjoy the fight, but some stuff I do agree was stupid.
Canuovea Dec 30 2014, 10:16 PM IP: 174.6.92.140 · Post #256
Trolls are supposed to turn to stone in sun. Orcs are less effective fighters in sunlight... they can't really handle it. That was the reason that Sauron had to have Mt. Doom pump all that ash into the air before his armies attacked Gondor.
Basically, it looks like they forgot all that for this battle. It was even established earlier on in the series. Those are the same type of trolls! Olog-Hai do not exist yet.
As for the ... type things, I sort of need them for this, I'm pissed off.
Harkovast Dec 30 2014, 11:01 PM IP: N/A · Post #257
Everyone I know has no real interest in these hobbit films.
Back when it was LOTR everyone was crazy excited and was fired up for each new movie.
But I dont know anyone who was excited for the third one of these.
The second film was just dreadful.
The barrel scene, the ridiculous chase at the end...it made me tired the way King Kong made me tired.
Random shit to pad out the run time.
By the third one its impossible for me to build up any enthusiasm at all.
CGI orcs dying in droves in a swirling green screen nightmare.
What happened to cool battles with real people fighting? Like the amazing running battle at the end of Fellowship of the Ring? When did we stop being allowed to just have people in costume sword fight? Can we not bring that back?
Canuovea Dec 31 2014, 02:38 AM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #258
Hark... that is basically it. The last bastion of that kind of thing is, sadly enough, Game of Thrones. But you've hit the nail on the head.
Wordweaver_three Dec 31 2014, 05:21 PM IP: 104.138.68.86 · Post #259
Trolls turning to stone is pretty standard fare in folklore. The troll in Three Billy Goat Gruff turns to stone when he falls in the water. Makes you wonder why he was living under a bridge that went over water in the first place. Guess trolls are dumb. Sun is the usual culprit.
Though Tolkiens trolls have more in common with ogres than trolls. Typically trolls were smaller. Anywhere from miniscule little smurf size up to dwarf size. D&D ran with Tolkiens idea of giant trolls but nixed the sunlight as their bane in favor of fire. Plus no more turning to stone. Never really cared for their take.
Frostwolf18 Dec 31 2014, 05:57 PM IP: 74.138.51.202 · Post #260
But...those trolls were using a cooking fire.
Can someone tell me that all the things that I saw as trolls in those films (including Lotr) were trolls? Cause I'm getting confused about if we saw ogres or not.
Canuovea Dec 31 2014, 07:46 PM IP: 108.180.252.126 · Post #261
There are no Ogres in Tolkien. Not that I am aware of... and if they existed, I'd probably know.
Seriously, they really really fucked that up in the film.
