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Post by Harkovast on Dec 4, 2015 21:34:06 GMT
So it turns out that in America, right wing politicians have, at the behest of the gun lobby, banned any federal money being used to research gun violence. Thats not campaigning to stop people restricting or putting out propaganda against guns. Thats a ban on actually researching the topic at all. Why do shootings keep happening in America? Apparantly the American government can legitimately claim to have no idea, because spending money to find out is illegal. Now putting asside any discussion of the rights or wrongs of gun ownership...I think banning actually learning about the topic seems a very strnage approach unless those doing this are worried the actual evidence wont agree with them. This ban has been in place for the last twenty years. Have a read about it.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 5, 2015 0:55:50 GMT
Oh boy, that is just fucking great that is.
That is just stupid. You'd think that if the NRA had any real confidence in the bullshit they spew, they'd want research to be done.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 5, 2015 4:39:02 GMT
Yeah I can't relate to why someone would do that unless they know they are talking nonsense. I mean if you took something I believe and scientists were going to test it (like that different races are equal or women are people too etc) I would say go for it. If the results proved me wrong I would be shocked and demand retesting and stuff cause it would go against my world view, but the idea of doing the tests of something like that wouldn't worry me, as I would assume the result would be what I expect and not some bizzare revelation that racists were right or whatever. I dont have a core belief that I would try to stop people from testing. Probably because I actually believe they things I claim to and try not to be a bullshitter.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 7, 2015 0:21:55 GMT
You're not thinking like a conservatist, Hark.
Now I can't really claim that I do, but based on rocky relationship between USA Right and science, I have some idea.
1. Guns do not cause violence. This is True. 2. Scientists are an anti-patriotic communist/marxist global conspiracy. 3. Therefore, it stands that there is no reason to waste money to research something that is known to be True. Also, if you let those scheming scientists, with their agendas, research gun violence, they'll probably fabricate results that say that guns may have some correlation with violent crimes in the US, which is Untrue, but might sway the uninformed masses. I mean, look what scientists did with global warming issues. 4. They want to prove that guns are correlated with violence, because they hate Freedom and Democracy and want the Good Guys to be left defenceless when they stage a coup and turn USA into a communist dictatorship. Amen.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 7, 2015 7:13:11 GMT
This research is actually why they banned it in the first place, at least partially. What he didn't include was that the increase in homicides were due largely to homeowners shooting home invaders. "Homicide" doesn't necessarily mean a murder, it just means someone got killed. Also he didn't include that the attempted suicides didn't go up, they were relatively flat, just the success of them did.
Essentially he was wasting taxpayer money to get an outcome he wanted.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 7, 2015 8:38:11 GMT
So instead of conducting further less biased studies, the answer is to just, by force of law, ban those studies?
Huh.
Nope. Still not a rational reaction. Especially from those who claim government meddling is bad.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 7, 2015 8:44:26 GMT
Gosh, I was actually right!
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 7, 2015 12:12:56 GMT
So instead of conducting further less biased studies, the answer is to just, by force of law, ban those studies? Huh. Nope. Still not a rational reaction. Especially from those who claim government meddling is bad. The studies aren't banned. There are hundreds of ongoing studies. The use of government money on these studies is banned.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 7, 2015 18:36:02 GMT
I don't see how that changes things much.
Pretty much any study can apply for federal funding, normally. But to prevent any narrative against its own, the gun lobby doesn't want others applying for funding. Because gee, do you think the gun lobby needs government money to make its own biased studies? No.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 8, 2015 8:05:05 GMT
Because gee, do you think the gun lobby needs government money to make its own biased studies? No. Neither does the anti-gun lobby.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 8, 2015 9:35:43 GMT
You might think, then, that the idea of having professionals (you know, the people who also look into things like car deaths and so forth) look at it might be worthwhile. Especially since that is kind of how the government evaluates what to do when it comes to other problems.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 8, 2015 10:57:16 GMT
And as for that study you claim didn't separate intruders from home defenders, here are a few quotes: From the Abstract: So, they seem to be looking at people who lived in that home. Not just anyone willy nilly. And Another: That doesn't seem to include intruders in it. Now this can be countered, somewhat, by stating that people are more likely to own a gun if they are in a dangerous environment, and therefore are also more likely to be killed by a gun while owning one. This makes sense for those killed during a robbery, drug deal, or abduction. But it does not work for those who were killed during a family argument. However, if you want to know the weaknesses of the study, they kind of just tell you: So this is what the NRA were so afraid of that they demanded the banning of federal funds for research? It seems pretty non-biased to me, it even gives a list of reasons it might not be particularly accurate! EDIT: If curious, for your own viewing: aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 11, 2015 10:27:58 GMT
At least they're honest about that part.
I'm not entirely sure if this is the exact survey I was thinking about. I remember there being a big to do about a gun survey in the early nineties that put that law into play. That was over twenty years ago.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 11, 2015 10:39:05 GMT
It wasn't this one then, this one was in 2004.
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