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Post by Canuovea on Oct 17, 2016 19:46:40 GMT
A very interesting point, StyxD. I think you may be right.
People would probably call "Gamers" a "sub culture" rather than a proper separate "culture" because they're not their own separate ethnic group and so on, with less history behind them, they borrow much of their values from the larger culture, etc etc etc.
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Post by StyxD on Oct 17, 2016 20:08:27 GMT
I didn't mean to say that those groups should be viewed equally. I could rant about "nerd culture" for hours on what I hate in it, but I also comprehend it somewhat. And I just meant that the ways those groups see themselves and their struggles with the dominant culture are eerily similar to me.
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Post by Canuovea on Oct 17, 2016 20:24:58 GMT
Oh yeah, I don't mean that you were saying they are of equal standing, I was just pointing it out.
That being said, you've got a good point about it all. Maybe using that language to explain to some SJW types about the other side's perspective is a good idea. Not saying it validates their behaviour, but these people need to exercise empathy more frequently.
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Post by Harkovast on Oct 20, 2016 20:34:28 GMT
Wow, yeah I think you are onto something actually.
I don't think we can relaly judge is "gamer culture" or "nerd culture" is more valid than "black culture" or whatever other culture. It clearly matters to the people that are in it, and since culture is subjective it only really exists as long as people care about it.
I think the emotion comes from the same place, and the emotion of it is all that matters.
Hmmm thats given me a lot to think about.
My attitude to cultural appropriationg is that it misses the point of the problem.
If I dress up as a native american chief and pretend to do a rain dance (or a thursday, as I call it), the problem isn't that I am stealing from native americans or some how my involvement is underminign their culture for them. The problem is that I'm mocking them and thus being a dick. If I decide I want to do minstrel show (friday) then I am not doing the same thing as the white guy who gets braided hair. One of us saw a cool hair style and got that style themselves, one of us is just mocking other people like an asshole. Niether of us is stealing black culture because you can't steal culture.
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Post by Canuovea on Oct 20, 2016 21:05:58 GMT
Gamer culture and nerd culture or whatever you call it is definitely not the same as "Black" culture or "Italian" culture or whatever you want to say. The very idea that you could equate a bunch of people playing video games with the historical legacy of most cultures alone (nevermind the other intricacies) is kind of insulting. They may be the same "type" of thing, but attempting to put them on the same level is like saying a grade 3 child is as good an actor as Sir Ian McKellan.
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Post by Harkovast on Oct 22, 2016 14:52:29 GMT
Well its something thats important to them.
I think gamer culture is pretty silly, but its not my place to tell them that what they think is important is or isn't valid, becuase its how they feel about it.
If everyone in the world stopped caring about their cultural identity tommorrow, all those cultures would basically stop mattering immediately.
Obviously this gamer identity is real and matters to the people involved in it, becuase they get super defensive and angry when they feel its under attack.
If I think its silly and not valid, it doesn't change the way they feel abotu it. Its the same with religions. Me thinking they are silly doesnt' change whether or not they are important to those engaged in them.
Me saying "You shouldn't care about this or identify as it becuase its trivial and stupid" doesn't change the fact that clearly they DO identify as this and think it matters. Again, its like me goign up to the religious person and saying its just a bunch of silly old stories. Its not just stories to them. Lets say its some whacky new religion that just got started, if hte people in it think its real, what I think of it as an outsider doesnt' change what it means to them.
Putting it up as not as valid as black culture or any other identity is meaningless. All someone can say is "that culture isn't valid to me", but not how important or valid they are to others. They are, by their nature, a completely subjective thing.
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Post by StyxD on Oct 22, 2016 16:30:09 GMT
I think you're overlooking an important that disqualifies gaming culture as a "full" culture: it's based around consumption.
"Gamer culture" doesn't create artifacts of things it considers important; the act of consumption of the right type of content is their expression. It's barely an expression at all, and that they'd try to police consumption makes it even more ridiculous.
Come up with silly religions, but I don't think there ever was one where people decided they'll make having fries at McDonalds each Sunday their holy service.
Ultimately, I didn't want to compare "content" of the cultures, but similar gatekeeping mechanisms.
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Post by Harkovast on Oct 22, 2016 18:11:00 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I don't think gaming is sensible thign to call a culture. But if the people involved feel its a culture, and treat it as a culture, then it becomes a culture. I mean if people get offended if you mock it, even if its something trivial and corperate, then to them it matters and their responses matter to society in general.
In a sense a mcdonalds cult is a good metaphor. I would say thats a pretty stupid cult, but if lots of people joined it and got offended when people say big macs are shit, then mcdonalds cultists would be a culture that mattered.
Value judgements on teh cultures isn't the point, what matters is that the people inside that culture are defensive of it, and hostile to outsiders meddling with it or mocking it.
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Post by Harkovast on Oct 22, 2016 18:16:44 GMT
What I think matters is not arguing over whether the outrage is justified or makes sense (I think it doesnt for gamer gate or the cultural appropriation crowd) but to get an understanding of where their anger is coming from.
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Post by Canuovea on Oct 23, 2016 0:12:01 GMT
I don't question that "gaming" is near and dear to their hearts, but that isn't what makes a culture. If they can't see that, they don't know what culture is. Gaming "culture" could certainly be a subculture though, I suppose.
I'd say gaming culture is a tad bit more like patriotism (or when it gets extreme, nationalism).
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Post by Horsie on Oct 23, 2016 0:30:13 GMT
CoD nationalism, that's a weird thought.
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Post by Canuovea on Oct 23, 2016 0:41:56 GMT
Well, yes. It is a funny thought.
You know the PC Master Race? They can get downright nationalistic about it.
A culture has massive undercurrents running through it, shaping everyone within it and being shaped by them in turn, often in ways that are difficult to predict. It is far more complicated than gaming is and has its metaphorical tentacles basically everywhere. Countries, while related to culture, are generally a more physical and straight up representation of something people will become attached to. And you can't tell me that the bitching some gamers do doesn't sound like citizens pissed off at some government body or another.
Then again, argument by analogy is fallacious anyway and getting too invested in a particular analogy is always a bad idea.
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Post by Harkovast on Oct 23, 2016 0:47:28 GMT
Culture, nation, religion, what ever you call it, its all the same basic human instinct...to form tribes and make people outside those tribes into the "other".
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Post by Canuovea on Oct 23, 2016 1:01:29 GMT
Huh, religion might work even better.
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