|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 12, 2016 20:26:39 GMT
If you thought saying white poeple getting dreadlocks was cultural appropriation was crazy, have I got a story for you. Here is an article discussing whether or not white people getting too dark of a tan is racist. No really, that's what they are considering.Strangely the answer isnt "no" or "of course not" or "What the hell is wrong with you? Why do you ask such fucking stupid questions?" At one point it links to a Japense trend of darkening skin which is actually referencing Japanese folklore abotu a mountain withc and has nothing to do with black people. The article further explains that black people whitening their skin shows how oppressed they are by white beauty standards. But then white poeple darken their skin? Thats cultural appropriation that ALSO harms black people. So even when you do exactly opposite things, either way black people are harmed. I don't know why the author thinks black poeple are so incredibly fragile, but maybe i am not anti racist enough to understand. Other than the fact there is a typo of saying tanning twice (I know I make a lot of typos, but I don't get paid to do this!), I would say that if someone has enough free time to worry about how dark someone else is getting their tan, they probably aren't all that oppressed. I'm not oppressed and I don't have time to worry about wehther or not someones tan is too dark or not. So quotes of how much pain seeing a dark tannig product is causing- Yeah there is literally nothing worse than that. There are companies that destroy our enviroment, make weapons that get sold to shady governments, exploit and under pay their workers...but selling a dark tanning product? NOOOOOOOOO! Has this person consider the words "I dont care"? Or "its none of my business what other people do?" If your culture can be destroyed by a tanning product, you have a shit culture and it wasn't much of a loss. Fortunately, tanning products can't destroy cultures, because that's silly. This kind of thing might seem trivial and funny, and it is in a sense, but there is a serious danger here. We live in a world of great divisions and great inequality. These kind of moronic articles turn serious issues into a joke. We are reaching the point where most people rolls their eyes and groan at accusations of racism or insensitivity. The constant crying wolf has created an envirometn of dangerous apathy and disinterest. |
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 12, 2016 20:57:18 GMT
Example of how much damage this kind of thing is doing.
My wife has an adopted native American sister, and posted a meme her sister had shared about how its offensive to dress up as a native american for halloween.
That shouldn't be super controversial. Mocking a vast group of people by dressing up as a parody of them is generally speaking a dick move.
But she got so blasted with people mocking her for being PC, pushing an SJW agenda etc that she took the down.
People have become so cynical that they just switch off to anything about respecting other cultures or not being offensive.
ANother example, today during a discussion on facebook where I criticsed Hillary Clinton, someone accused me of "gaslighting".
For those who don't know, thats an abusive tactic where you convince the person they are imagining things in order to mess with their head.
Apparantly I am gas lighting Hillary Clinton.
When someone accuses me of something serious like that, I should be concerned and think carefully about my actions.
Instead I'm rolling my eyes and ignoring it.
Maybe the next time someone calls me out it will be valid, but now I have been primed to not pay attention, assuming its nothing but a lame silencing tactic.
Important words are being rendered meaningless and important concept are turning into a joke no one listens to.
This trend needs to stop, though i have no idea how that can be achieved.
|
|
|
|
Post by Canuovea on Oct 12, 2016 21:00:42 GMT
Its bad overall, really.
This is kinda bonkers.
|
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 12, 2016 21:24:09 GMT
I think society is going in a really bad direction these days.
There needs to be someone to give us another way to go, because everyone is leading us into crazy shit right now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Horsie on Oct 13, 2016 8:16:15 GMT
I'm not surprised, Huffington Post is a fucking joke.
|
|
|
|
Post by StyxD on Oct 13, 2016 10:19:20 GMT
It seemed to me that the original complaint was about names of the products (I'm under the impression that people dislike the color of their skin being compared to objects like chocolate), and the article tried to weave this tanning issue out of that, which is admittedly pretty stupid.
|
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 13, 2016 12:03:14 GMT
The products were named by someone who doesn't speak English as a first language, and who probably doesn't know all the conotation particular terminology might have. Ironically, this feels like the "anti racist" people are the ones applying their cultural standards to other cultures and getting angry when those people don't follow those norms. Social Justice is changing, its not what it used to be. Don't self tan, don't have 'black' hair styles, don't do yoga, don't do anything other cultures do etc etc. It's slipping away from equality and turning into advocating for some new kind of segregation. Saying you don't care about someones race is now considered racist in a lot of these circles. Apparantly that's a sign of white priviledge, denying other peoples racial identity. Rather than...you know...not caring about their race? I will use examples from that Everyday Feminism site to give you a few specifics I've seen- Guide for white people raising black children.That article features the line "That parent needs to recognize that the needs of that black child are different emotionally, socially, mentally and physically." Is that a quote from Stormfront? The KKK? No that's ultra progressive woke poeple telling me how black people are pretty much a different species. If you aren't attracted to people of particular race? That's racist accoring to Kat Blaque.I guess if you aren't attracted to someone you have to fake it or something? Otherwise you are helping white supremacy apparantly. Rather than, you know, just not finding someone sexual attractive. If you aren't attracted to someone, you can apparantly train youself to change who you want to have sex with. I imagine it involves some kind of repairative therapy? Are these ideas from Conservative Christians? Nope, ultra progressives again. Interestingly, part way through Kat says that she stopped having a preference towards white men and started getting a preference towards black men. So...she still has a racial preference, just a different and more acceptable one? Here are tips for a white man dating a black woman.Apparantly that is something you need a guide to...rather than just treating the other person normally? Like normal people do? Apparantly you need to reevaluate and consider yourself carefully before going out with a black chick because you might be being racist and not realising and you need to be aware of how different black people are from you. Again, this isn't the Klan telling you to keep to your own, its the progressives warning you of the dangers of straying from your own kind. The ideas here seem to be that we are all fundamentally different, and are always going to struggle to relate to each other. I thought getting away from racism was about treating everyone equally, but the new thinking seems to be that its racist unless you actively try to treat everyone differently based on race. Everyday feminsim and Kat Blaque and all their crowd, are so obsessed with race, its creepy. Worrying about if black women activists have white boyfriends too much? Yeah, that's a thing. (In that one Kat waffles a load of bullshit for a while. The answer is really simple. If you are very "woke" you are probably reasonably wealthy and educated. More white peoples move in welath, educated circles. If you are a poor person with little education you don't have time to worry about social justice and models of oppression and all that shit. Its people dating people of their own social class and there are a lot less black men in that social class and in those social circles. As much as she is obsessed with the importance of race in everything, would Kat really relate to poor, uneducated blakc man who niether knows nor cares about all these fancy abstract concepts and listens to music full of references to bitches and ho's and glorifying ultra masculine violence...or a pretentious, middle class white guy who went to university and blogs on tumblr all the time about symstemic micro aggressions? Its a numbers game, there are more white men that are going to fit the group she fits into then there are black men.) The political right has served up racism, prejudice and resentment for years, I thought the liberals were an alternative. These days they just seem to be the same thing, with different targets considered acceptable. The racist says keep to your own kind because blacks are inferior, the progressive says keep to your own kind because white people are oppressive. It feels like two out of control trains but both are driving off the same cliff. I thought not being racist was just...you know...not being racist to people? I feel like a dinosaur, unable to relate to or understand what people are doing. The ideas I grew up with don't seem to fit society any more and both sides of the debate seem abhorent to me. I guess it doesn't matter in the long run, because I'm just one person and no one has to listen to me, waving my walking stick and grumbling about crazy kids these days. It frightens me though, to see what I thought was progress being swept asside so eagerly by the very people I thought would be defending it. I see society marching backwards, and doing so gladly, with proud cheers of approval and self congratulation. But I guess it doesn't really matter how I feel about it. I'm probably just not woke enough. |
|
|
|
Post by StyxD on Oct 13, 2016 21:24:18 GMT
The products were named by someone who doesn't speak English as a first language, and who probably doesn't know all the conotation particular terminology might have. Ironically, this feels like the "anti racist" people are the ones applying their cultural standards to other cultures and getting angry when those people don't follow those norms. Hear ya! I actually encountered this same mechanism after Witcher 3 was released. I mean, I don't even like the games/books or what they stand for, but it was kinda uncomfortable watching people decry the game as racist because there are no black people. I mean, I get diversity and all that, would be nice, but are foreign works obliged to cater to USA social structure? The SJWs' excuse was that the game was released in global markets and should be judged by global standards. But then, why is lack of black people more racists than lack of Asian people? Or any other ethnicity, for that matter. So if neither just existence of non-white people or their quantity (it's a very monolithic country, but there are many more Asians in Poland than black people; have been since middle ages), what is the deciding factor? U-S-A, that's what is. And it actually managed to annoy me. Imperialists, am I right? Ok, this time you win, Hark! This is fucked up. The first blog post is just scary. It has the same "my child's life as the perfect distillation of my political views" as one right-wing blog post I've read once. Only with extra creepy, because the author is not even speaking about their own children. Gosh, she even invents politically appropriate challenges for the kid. Better have that MLK speeches handy when they get harassed by the local cops. If they don't, or perhaps it turns out the kid is not big into politically appropriate books... well, congratulations, I guess you just whitewashed you kid, you horrible racist you. Maybe just tell white people to stop appropriating black children, thank you. It just so reeks of the "one true path in life" that it makes me angry. And I kinda find it amusing than in an effort to show how utterly different black children are, the author can conjure, like, two examples even some high-schoolers know, which are ultimately irrelevant (it's not like white children don't get hair that needs certain way of caring or genetic propensity for some diseases that you should probably care about (but probably will spend most of your life not caring)). Horrible, just horrible. But not all is lost. I noticed that the author ostensibly refers to the child as "he". Should we call her out on internalized misogyny and declare not a real feminist? The next two are... I dunno. Seem misguided but well-intentioned to me. The second one seems at least sensible, it asks people to evaluate their preferences, not outright change them. And hey, maybe some introspection isn't that bad in current culture. The only iffy thing is how she stated being more attracted to black men after confronting her own prejudices. But attraction is a fickle thing. Thinking you're fighting the good fight by dating black guys can totally make them more attractive, I suppose. After all, isn't this just a racially flipped "I'm attracted to Asian women because they're submissive" thing? It has no base in the person themselves, it's just an idea that appeals to them. The third one is just... I dunno. I don't do dating. If a person starts a conversation by mentioning how nicely exotic you are, the sensible thing to me is to GTFO. But maybe in dating world you are supposed to hang on to most superficial details of a person you don't know and it bears to remind people they should choose those superficial things responsibly. I dunno. But you win the Internet with the first one. It's utterly horrifying. Still, I guess it's not enough to make me abandon the idea of feminism. There are always people I'll disagree with. It doesn't mean we should scrap this and start anew. Well, in programming it does, but that doesn't count. I guess for me it doesn't. Maybe I'm naive or cynical. Isn't ideological purity what people like that outright demand from their movements? Or maybe I'm just gaslighting you? |
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 14, 2016 1:46:20 GMT
Okay good, I am not going completely insane!
There is a LOT of stuff like this out there and a lot of the messages they push are really messed up. Everyday Feminism is the clearest example, but its far from the only one.
People done the social justice cause like its a suit of armour and then spout the most bizzare, hateful , harmful crap.
I dont want you to abandon the idea of feminism.
Sexism is really bad!
So is racism, homophobia and being a douche bag to anyone else.
The problem is that these causes are more nad more getting hijacked to push crazy agendas that are harming society and pushing us all further apart instead of bringing us together.
You can label yourselves how ever you want and support what ever you think best.
I just lay things out as I see them and call out bullshit where I find it.
Sometimes I will be wrong, and hopefully people will tell me when I am.
I think its really important to see things as they really are, and not be clouded by what we idealise them as.
If society is goign to progress, assholes like the people at everyday feminism need to be challenged, even they are "on our side" of the debate.
trying to brush it under the carpet allows movements to get corrupted, twisted and discredited.
Everyday feminsim is so bad, its almost like a cure for being into social justice.
You spend half an hour on there, you start hating feminsim and think racism isn't a big deal after all and gays should stop complaining.
You could use it as bigot boot camp!
No reasonable perosn would agree to the nonsense they spout on there.
I am not saying being a feminsim or into social justice is bad or makes someone a bad person...hell it should make them a good person! I am saying there are big problems in these movements that are threatening to turn them from a positive force to a very negative one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 14, 2016 20:15:54 GMT
I remember that Witcher controversy. Social Justice groups often try to put on airs of being global but they are generally super provincial, so their attitudes tend to be super American. I think demanding polish poeple, making a fictionalised version of their mythologies, use modern American demographics is astoundingly arrogant and offensive. Here is a post that covers a similar topic-  Something I should clarify, which I think I might have neglected to explain properly. When I get mad at "social jsutice warriors" I am not talking about anyone who is against racism or thinks homophopbia is a problem etc. I am talking about the kind of assholes you see on sites like everyday feminism. These douche bags are a bunch of bullies who want a cover of rightiousness to cover themselves. Unfortunately these jerks are hijacking these movements more and more, and destroying them from within. People dont' roll their eyes and say fuck off to talk abotu racism because everyone suddenly got more racist. Assholes have cried wolf and bullied so mcuh that the words have lost all meaning to many people. I saw a quote today from CS Lewis that made me think of this problem- "Hence Theocracy is the worst of all governments. If we must have a tyrant a robber barron is far better than an inquisitor. The baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity at some point may be sated; and since he dimly knows he is doing wrong he may possibly repent. But the inquisitor who mistakes his own cruelty and lust of power and fear for the voice of Heaven will torment us infinitely more because he torments us with the approval of his own conscience and his better impulses appear to him as temptations." That's what SJWs have become. They mistake their impulses to bully and smug superiority for kindness and humbleness. They think when they are silencing people they are being open minded. And when they feel empathy for the groups they are meant to hate? That's a bad thing. No really, thats a thing. Getting upset when someone tells you something upsetting is bad.Apprantly black people are angered by white people having emotions and empathy is a weakness that SJW's must over coem to be truly woke. It's scarey stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by Canuovea on Oct 14, 2016 20:21:59 GMT
Yeah, the person who is self assured and extreme to a ridiculous length is always a horrible thing to deal with. True believers, if you will. They're the ones who always have to be right, and if you don't agree with them you are anything ranging from stupid to the devil itself.
|
|
|
|
Post by StyxD on Oct 14, 2016 21:00:54 GMT
I think demanding polish poeple, making a fictionalised version of their mythologies Well, to be fair, Witcher has actually fuck all to do with Slavic mythologies. It's more like a Slavic-themed bestiary addon to D&D. Because the world is literally D&D. And some of those monsters in the game are completely made up, retaining only the name of something from Slavic lore. But it's an unpopular opinion with Witcher fans. And it seems foreign audiences also swallowed "Slavic mythology, such unique!" hook and sinker. So maybe what do I know. Uh, what is this "privilage of never spelling your last name" and how does it relate to Polish? |
|
|
|
Post by Horsie on Oct 14, 2016 21:22:10 GMT
I guess the idea is this person felt that white people never have to spell their surnames for someone, because... I don't know, I guess they're all easy to spell? And therefore they don't have to put up with the "embarrassment" (maybe?) of having to spell their name when asked for it.
As for Polish, speaking as someone who isn't Polish, your surnames can be a nightmare to spell, so the point was it isn't just non-whites who might have to spell their last name for someone.
|
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Oct 14, 2016 22:26:53 GMT
Yeah its the idea that white names are easier for white people to spell (American white people, obviously. When they say white they ALWAYS mean white American) where as a black persons name might be harder to spell.
Now thats a pretty feeble privilidge at the best of times.
But someone pointed out that to most English speakers a Polish name might seem hard to spell, becuase shockingly there are white people that aren't white americans.
Its almost like SJW attempts to fit us into neat racial categories don't work and are actually kinda racist.
What are the odds?
|
|
|
|
Post by StyxD on Oct 17, 2016 15:20:40 GMT
Well, I don't know what to think...
Actually, Polish people rarely have to spell anything ever (in Poland at least) because Polish is a phonetic language where there's usually only one fairly obvious way of writing any native string of sounds. In fact, there is not even a verb meaning "to spell". The closest equivalent means "to speak/read a word one letter at a time", which is not something anyone over the age of 10 should ever (ideally) do.
Which is why the idea of spelling contests or lessons (that crop up in English children fiction form time to time) utterly befuddled me when I was a child.
So I guess that original post was right... in a way?
Or perhaps it's a privilege to live in a country where your language it the most prominent language... I guess it makes sense? Is that a privilege?
You know, I've had an epiphany. Probably because we were talking about FemFreq in the alternative thread. Epiphany about appropriation and labeling and segregation, and others scary thing Hark brought up in this thread. Posting this will probably ruin my feminist cred, but then again, hardly anyone reads this forums, so I should retain Passing Privilege.
So have you noticed, that people being angry about appropriation... sound a bit like gamers who later went on to form GamerGate?
As far as I understand the issue... we have a social group, that is a minority to the dominant culture. The group has been discriminated against, and generally struggles for its voice to be heard in society. The group has a culture of their own, of course, with rituals, slang, values, significant trappings, and so on. This culture is of course very important for them, as it helps them express themselves and their identity, separate from the mainstream.
Then, in come people from the mainstream, look at the culture's things and say "hey, that's nice, let's have that".
Now, this understandably pisses the culture off. After all, the mainstream people, who have trodden on them for so long, suddenly want a thing that is theirs, and you can bet they're strip it of any cultural significance it has, or the fact that it ever came from that other culture. Appropriate and devalue it.
Now this may fit things like yoga, which went from a Hindu spiritual practice to fitness exercises; but also, get this: video games.
So we have nerd gamers. They feel they're being scorned and mocked by the society, and they have their video games which they cherish. And then, some people come in, especially women (and if you're a school- or collage-age shut-in, being a women seems like the pinnacle of social privilege, "get out of fear of rejection free" card), who say "well, aren't games nice; they should be for everyone, and they should be about inclusion and relaxation, not about proving your masculinity".
And then the "hardcore gamers" get mad. Because other people are taking their thing, despite not coming from the culture, not understanding what games culturally mean, having not suffered like them, but want the "fruits" of their culture anyway.
It started early with the scorn for "casual gamers" and culminated with GamerGate and the rest is history.
So am I saying that people angry about appropriation of their cultures are as bad as GamerGate. Not really, but...
I dunno, I've had my doubts, and now I have them more. Is there anything more behind this outrage at appropriation than simple resentment of "stop taking our stuff, oppressors"? What is the endgame of drawing lines between cultures like that?
|
|
