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Post by Harkovast on Jan 29, 2017 4:50:59 GMT
We can hope, but there's a lot of partisan loyalty and to a lot of republicans the truth is they are probably glad to see Trump do this.
Again, I have to stress, things have got so wacky right now that I don't want to make predictions of any kind. It can end more then one way and the situation is so crazy and so unique that I cant tell you which is more likely.
If Trump gets through this without backing down, that's it, he's basically shown he can do whatever the fuck he wants and there's nothing left to stop him. I mean seriously, if he can get away with this he can get away with anything.
The thing is I have absolutely no idea how likely that is because I've never seen a situation this strange before. This is like rolling an unknown number of dice and trying to guess the total rolled!
People are cheering the protests (which is good because the protests are good, people need to be out there right now) but we shouldn't celebrate anything yet. Politicians have totally ignored protests before (Iraq war for example) and got away with it. This could be the movement that brings Trump down or a futile gesture, we wont know till the dust settles.
This is totally untested waters. I guess its exciting in that this could lead to something good but its also frightening because it could go bad. I'm as uncertain as its possible to be on this, its too nuts!
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 29, 2017 4:54:46 GMT
Protests are important, but more important is the legal claims. The courts will have to deal with this, because they're the only ones who can bring the Executive to heel if the Legislative won't. And I don't think that this is the purview of the Legislative anyway.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 29, 2017 5:03:21 GMT
The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 banned this sort of thing, at least when it comes to immigrants, not sure about visitors and refugees. They'll probably have issues trying to keep out people who obtained a visa prior to the order being signed, or who have permanent resident status, I read that the claim being made by the administration to deal with those people is that entry is barred, and that issuing a visa or green card is entirely separate from permission to enter the country, which is ridiculous.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 29, 2017 8:54:29 GMT
Don't get too excited guys. We've seen those "He'll never recover from this" moments before.
He's just getting started and nobody is gonna make a serious go at impeachment until the Dems recover either the House or the Senate. So 2 years minimum.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 29, 2017 8:56:26 GMT
Yeah, that's probably true.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 29, 2017 15:08:47 GMT
I dont think it will cause impeachment, at least not right away. But if he is defeated here it will greatly weaken him as a leader since hes come rushing out the gate and immediately failed.
Of course, as I said, the alternative is he doesn't back down and gets the go ahead with this, or at least most of it, in which case he is far stronger.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 29, 2017 16:38:40 GMT
I guess this at least gives me a chance to dispel rumours around here that I'm a fan of Trump, or sympathetic to him. My allegiance is always to my own moral principles and Trump has gone waaaay outside of the bounds of anything I can accept. I've been told by a couple of people recently that "perfect is the enemy of good" in response to my political views. I guess I'm hard to please.
Unfortunately, the fact my opinion makes literally no difference to anything has remained unchanged.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 29, 2017 20:57:51 GMT
I don't think it'll work out for him, but I imagine there's going to be legal wrangling over this for a while to come.
Personally, I think it makes the administration look clueless; not only are the facing major legal challenges to this (a federal judge, numerous attorney generals, several lawsuits filed by civil rights organizations, etc.), but the implementation of the order has been chaotic, it's still not entirely clear who is and isn't affected by it, and it's fucked up people who hold citizenship but don't live in countries named in the order, possibly including American citizens who hold duel citizenship.
In other news Trump has decided to change the way the National Security Council will work; the national intelligence director and joint chiefs of staff will attend meetings only when it's deemed necessary, whereas before they attended every meeting, however Steve Bannon will regularly attend meeting instead.
So I guess this means the guys in charge of intelligence and the military aren't as important to national security as the former editor of a far-right rag.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 29, 2017 21:03:11 GMT
It is good to hold high standards, and you don't deserve any blame for this, but that's mostly because you're British and had no say in the election really. But those Americans who were all like "I shall never vote for the lesser of two evils!" carry some of the blame here, because they live in a two party state, where to be responsible citizens, they have to do just that. Its a democracy, that means part of the ruling responsibility falls on the shoulders of the people, and those who allow their principles to create a world worse for everyone else accomplish nothing good but to cling to their stubbornness and pride and let others suffer for it.
Yes, those who allowed Trump to be elected are responsible for this. That is how ruling works, what it means in its essence. You are responsible for your fuckups and what harm it causes others, even if you are only one of the people who put the problem in office.
Of course, if voters like what Trump has done, more power to them I suppose. That does not absolve them of responsibility, but it perhaps is worth it for them.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 30, 2017 0:23:55 GMT
I dont deserve blame, no, I wasn't suggesting that. Christ that would make me completely mental if I thought that.
I do wonder if I have incredibly messed up and insane views, mainly because very few people ever agree with me.
I might just be completely nuts.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 30, 2017 0:42:23 GMT
As long as you don't think people like Nigel Farage and Geert Wilders are reasonable, then I suppose it doesn't matter.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 30, 2017 2:57:19 GMT
I can see why people join religions and political ideologies. It must be nice to have a sense of purpose and certainty, where there is a clear goal to work towards and clear enemies to oppose. I think they are all a load of crap, but I can see why people are drawn to it.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 30, 2017 3:43:43 GMT
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 31, 2017 3:35:41 GMT
He's fired the Acting Attorney General and the Acting Immigration and Customs Enforcement Director. Who can say how this will end?
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 31, 2017 3:41:53 GMT
Man, I thought things might get weird under Trump and he might have a different leadership style or make strange decisions...
...didn't think it would get quite this strange quite this fast. We've kind of gone from zero to 100 here.
I thought he would be a bad president, I didn't think he would be the most insane shit I've ever seen in American politics.
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