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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2019 5:40:55 GMT
"Why do elves never explain anything? You just say "you don't understand" and walk away. Well let me explain it to you. There once was an empire that threw its weight around with little regard. then the world turned on them, and now they starve on the mountain tops. There once was a dragon that did what he pleased with only pretense to having cause. Then he had his head caved in, and is now a 3 foot cripple. There once were a bunch of nobles who threw their weight around a boomtown of a city, they got driven out if they weren't lynched. There once was an elven queen who threw her weight around and intimidated and invaded her neighbours. How does that end I wonder?"
It really bothers Tiberia.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 15:05:44 GMT
Quin-Tainn isn't throwing his weight around! He's just not explaining himself. Sometimes explaining things is a lot of trouble, might leak information that needs to be secure and the person you are talking to wont really understand anyway.
He explains the stuff people really need to know...or at least what he wants them to know to get things done.
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Post by StyxD on Feb 2, 2019 16:05:28 GMT
There once was an elven queen who threw her weight around and intimidated and invaded her neighbours. So elves aren't explaining anything because they're in war with the nation? That seems pretty reasonable… As for how to "solve" Kal: first, she needs to lose a face-to-face combat with a party of heroes professing the value of friendship, thus teaching her a lesson that relying on others does not make one weaker. The next step… uh, I dunno, ship her with Quinn-Tain?
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2019 16:53:57 GMT
Please god no.
Ahem. Nah they weren't at war, just a small matter of a religious/political dissident. To be fair to the Elf in question, though, actually knowing the details would be rather dangerous.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 16:59:15 GMT
Quinn-Tain doesn't misused authority. His authority is very specific and he has no interesting in going beyond. He isn't there to judge nations or tell them how to run their affairs. He's just there to beat the shit out of the West and will use whatever means are necessary because otherwise the world as we know it is doomed.
Stopping and explaining himself or justifying himself to people doesn't help him achieve the goal of defeating the West (and actually might hinder that goal sometimes) so he doesn't engage in it.
If you think he is a manipulative bastard, don't forget what the West gets up to. The Speaker was actively using the Heretic to destabilise the Tsung-Dao nation and plunge it into civil war. For Quinn-Tain you being harmed might be an unfortunate side effect of what he does...for the West that's pretty much the end goal.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2019 17:04:53 GMT
His authority derives from... his own people and his own perceived morality.
If that game with Tiberia taught me anything, though, it is that explaining yourself will indeed help you achieve your goals because otherwise nobody is likely to cooperate with you if they don't have to. Even if it is for their own good.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 19:43:11 GMT
Quinn-Tain gets no love around here!
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 19:57:49 GMT
Hang on...I just realised something... Do you guys hate him because he withholds information from other characters... Or because he's withholding it from you guys?
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Post by StyxD on Feb 2, 2019 21:22:05 GMT
Quinn-Tain doesn't misused authority. His authority is very specific and he has no interesting in going beyond. He isn't there to judge nations or tell them how to run their affairs. He's just there to beat the shit out of the West and will use whatever means are necessary because otherwise the world as we know it is doomed. See, I don't know how serious you are when you're saying this, but it makes me question everything I know about you. I thought you hate foreign interventionism, like the wars Bush administration started, but here you seem to be defending it! I mean, I get the role in the story that the Wizards play, but I thought it's obvious they should be viewed as morally dubious! You say Quinn-Tain's authority is very specific, but if his mission is "beat the shit out of the West any way you can" then it's obviously not true! He could do anything so long as he can justify it as harming the West. And if he oversteps his authority, what are people going to do, complain to an Eldex court? I also don't believe Wizards aren't supposed to "tell nations how to run their affairs", considering all Quinn-Tain is doing is running around telling rulers "you better join us fighting the West, or else". Supposed Quinn-Tain found a nation in a split between two politicians; one pacifist and another one a warmonger. Wouldn't he rather strike a deal with the latter in exchange for helping him gain power? In fact, Wizards' MO is rather similar to the shit USA used to pull against USSR during the Cold War. Hang on...I just realised something... Do you guys hate him because he withholds information from other characters... Or because he's withholding it from you guys? I don't think a character can be used to withhold information from a reader. That said, this made me think… if Quinn-Tain wants to withhold information about Kal, why is he telling so much? Why not just let others think that Kal eloped them, what a shame? Instead, he pipes-in with his non-comment "Oh, we can't kill her and we shouldn't kill her, and in fact it's good we didn't kill her." If he's not going to say anything of value, perhaps he shouldn't say anything, because it looks like little more than Wizard grandstanding.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 2, 2019 22:44:49 GMT
Yeah, that's the problem I have with him; it's not that he doesn't tell the reader, it's that he sometimes seems to go out of his way to make cryptic comments.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2019 22:49:40 GMT
That's actually a really good point.
Also, Kal was pretty keen on killing Quinn Tain. Considering her attitude, I'd have wondered what he did to make him seem a better target than, oh, I dunno, the people who locked her up so ridiculously. Then I remembered: He's a wizard. Wizards are generally going to piss people off, so it makes sense. Kal can always come back and murder those Tolpish in revenge, presuming Daddy doesn't somehow stop her, but that wizard is there now and might disappear at any moment. And fuck Wizards, so take any opportunity to murder them one can get! Makes you wonder what happened to her to make her dislike the wizards that much. I mean, of course they did something (involving daddy? Poor daddy), its just a question of what, exactly, they did.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 2, 2019 23:03:25 GMT
Maybe it's just because pandas are dicks? They really are.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 23:05:23 GMT
The point of Quinn-Tain is that responsibility and authority aren't always good things. Maybe if you are a self serving psychopath (like most people who end up in charge of countries it seems) but for anyone with a conscience it should be a horrible burden. Often he has to make unpleasant choices and screw people over in order to save more people. In the example you gave of choosing to help a war like leader who would be more useful, that is a tough decision, especially for someone who actively doesn't want to be involved in other nations...but ultimately its a call Quinn-Tain might have to make.
In those types of situations he can't abdicate the choice, and choosing to do nothing is still an active choice on his part that will result in certain amount of suffering.
Sometimes you aren't choosing between good and bad moral choices but between which immoral option you consider most acceptable.
I guess the thing to keep in mind with him is that he'd rather not be doing any of this. He'd rather be on his island, listening to the universe.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2019 23:07:13 GMT
I'm not saying Quinn-Tain is right or his view on things is always the correct one, but I also don't think hes completely bad or his views are completely evil. I think he's doing the best he can, as imperfect as that may be.
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Post by zaealix on Feb 3, 2019 0:35:21 GMT
My take was that Quinn-Tainn comes off as such a dick because he's dealing with chaos butterfly nonsense- Every Decision Matters, and more importantly, he doesn't know how much 'wiggle room' he has for NOT being a jerk. So he comes off as purposefully withholding power and influence that could so easily help, so easily make a difference! And mind, that's AFTER he goes and pokes you for what's up with you that you look miserable.
The trick, as I see it, is he's not the West. Can't just ORDER people around with absolute authority, he's gotta trade favors and whatnot. And because Wizard, he'd like to do that with as little summoning thunderbolts from the sky as he can get away with.
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