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Post by TempestFennac on Feb 7, 2015 18:34:42 GMT
I never said it wasn't powerful. What I'm saying is that it sounds like you're ignoring limitations which are listed in the spells solely because of the bad racial fluff and/or because you don't expect DMs to scrutanise everything the PCs want the people they use the spells on to do. As a result I see them as being more like the Image line of spells in the sense that they have to be used with care rather than being like spells such as Glitterdust, Haste and Finger of Death which you just fire off to get instantly powerful effects. That's a pretty interesting idea regarding the caster taking damage, Zaealix (that's exactly how I see it regarding the limitations you mentioned admittedly).
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Post by tiberia on Feb 7, 2015 19:42:34 GMT
It depends on the personality and culture of your target. And Orcish culture is... Not really a thing you can hold up for discussion. Because there is no single orc culture Tolkien writes them as tortured elves who are evil now, but also come from mud, and are sometimes called goblins, I really don't know, ask canuovea D&D depends on the setting, but they are usaully just angry idiots, but sometimes have an honor code My friend likes to run them like honor bound samurai cultures sort of I like to run them as fairly cultured Gauls or Celts who are stuck with an eternal race war against elves that they want no part of. Asimov Writes them as us people from earth, and Elves are the spacers. not literally but in the robot series the earthers have many of the traits associated with orcs (short lived, dirty, uncultures, hoards of them|), and the spacers have many of the traits attributed to elves (clean, long lived, cultured, fewer in number). The Earthers are tho good guys, and the books take time to show why spacer culture is flawed, and doomed to stagnate.
So you cast charm on an Orc. What happens? Ask the DM, because you can not assume what will happen, especially since Orcs are individuals in their own culture just like you. Orc A might gladly kill his friends because he has mental illness, but Orc B might refuse to since those are his battle brothers.
In the end the main issue is thta mind control easily becomes save or die Think I have mentioned this before, but just in case, this is why save or die is bad game mechanics As a player You cast save or die on something. if it works and it was a major enemy, then congrats you have an anti-climax. funny the first time, dull the rest. If they are unimportant then you wasted a powerful spell for some reason. If the ysave against your spell, you wasted a spell.
As a DM your enemy casts save or die on a player. If the player fails to save they have every right to be pissed. You have just killed their character and all they failed to do was be lucky. They had no part in their own death. The only thing they could have done to avoid this fate was to not come to your game that day, or stay at the tavern and become a farmer. If they die because they were bested in battle, or they were dumb, or they sacrifice themselves then that's a good death. even some bad luck is fine. Enemy gets a crit, and the mother of all damage rolls? then that was random chance, it sucks, but they fell in battle Finger of death? all they get is a single roll. one bad roll and they are dead. That is a bitch death.
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Post by TempestFennac on Feb 7, 2015 19:46:22 GMT
I agree with those comments about save-or-lose spells as well. This is why I ban those spells unless the players all want me to unban them. The idea of Gaulish Orcs is interesting as well. How did the Elf war start in your setting?
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Post by tiberia on Feb 7, 2015 20:09:18 GMT
Elves are assholes
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Post by Horsie on Feb 7, 2015 20:28:35 GMT
Or have some way to defend against it. That's not some crazy dude, that's a man who knows who to defend against magic-users.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 7, 2015 21:20:35 GMT
The funny thing, Tib, is that Tolkien levels many of the same criticisms against his elves that you do. At least the ones that chose to remain in Middle Earth after the First Age. Here, I'll give you a quote.
About their choice to stay in Middle Earth:
Their smithcraft did reach a height not seen since Valinor, though. But the point Tolkien makes is that they essentially stagnated.
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Post by StyxD on Feb 7, 2015 23:36:08 GMT
This topic is so fascinating... I should have stopped reading it, but I couldn't. I have almost played it, but didn't manage to participate when a game was being run. But from what I've heard from a friend who got to play it... well, it sounded kinda meh. Like, I asked if you can play a mage and if mages are cool, and he said yeah, you can be a mage but only if you're a hippie Native American. Because magic returned, Native Americans exclusively have it and they formed an evil empire that conquered huge chunks of US... Yeah, this sounded like crap. (By the way, is it true that only Natives have magic? Well, I guess Irish terrorist have it too... I'm kind of afraid to ask who else has it.) I also heard that the action system was pretty broken. As in, there was no point in not taking someone who could stride the matrix or the astral, because all action in those those planes and in real world was separate. As in, if you play a straight up warrior archetype and your turn comes, you take an action. If someone has matrix and/or astral, they take up to three actions. Then initiative passes come and basically multiply all this. So you might just not get to do much at all in combat. Is this true or did I misinterpret something? Though the real reason I decided to give up on Shadowrun, aside from the fact that I didn't enjoy the prospect of playing a cultural supremacist Native American and being told they're the good guys (because I would play a mage; I always play mages in RPGs), was that I played Earthdawn before. I knew Earthdawn and Shadowrun were connected and the first one was basically set in the past of the latter. It sort of made sense there. All the races that appeared when magic returned were races from Earthdawn... except one. The lizard guys. They were lizard guys in Earthdawn, but in Shadowrun they're poof! - gone. They took out one race that I wanted to play (because I always play lizard guys when they're available; the only way to make me not play an available lizard race is to allow me to play a gnoll, but the catch is that I never play a gnoll because I'm afraid people will call me a furry ). This was an unforgivable sin for Shadowrun. By the way, the essence crap sounds stupid as hell, too. There's one more thing that puzzles me. What's with the Japanese stuff? I mean, street samurai? What is that, even? How does it fit with the rest of the world? I never heard anything about Japan in context of Shadowrun. Also, Hark, I did play Earthdawn, as I mentioned, and I didn't see any of the hippie stuff you mentioned (or which is blatantly apparent in Shadowrun)... did I miss something? Although I agree, the rules are torturous. They seem fun at first, but when you start to level up... Also, I'll state a heresy now... I think Harkovast could work without the talking animals.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 7, 2015 23:41:13 GMT
Actually, no, not only Native Americans can be mages. Where did that come from? Well... at least not in the version I played... weird.
And I played some combat and it worked just fine. Not that I have much experience with RPG combat, but... I'm not sure what you mean?
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Post by StyxD on Feb 7, 2015 23:50:15 GMT
As I said, I've never played it and only heard all this second hand, so it may be all bullshit.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 7, 2015 23:54:07 GMT
Why were you an undead wolf?
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 7, 2015 23:55:28 GMT
Tempest whether or not I can get orcs to kill each other is kind of a side issue, I think you are missing the point. If I can just tell one of the orcs to go wait outside...thats incredibly powerful! Or just ask him to come close so we can talk to him and then all jump on him and kill him when hes not expecting it. Getting the orcs to kill each other is just the best of a hole host of completely broken abilities you can get off this stuff.
I don't really understand your objection to using the fact the monsters are treacherous and evil against them. You seem to be saying "yeah they are treacherous and attack each other...but thats only if you read what the descriptions actually SAY. If we ignore that and make them totally different then it wont work." Umm...yeah I guess so. If the bad guys aren't the bad guys and the whole situation is different, I might need a different plan...you've got me there.
I can judge it on a case by case basis. If the enemy are evil and treacherous and always back stabbing each other I will get them to kill each other. Otherwise I will have the strongest ones wait outside for a little break or come over for "chat". Either way my power is broken.
Image spells that create illusions are either the best spells that break the game or totally useless, depending on what the GM decides. If he lets the illusions work or just offers a saving throw they become as good as save or die. Enemy makes a test, if they fail I can make them believe literally anything I want and see what ever I want them to see. Some GMs counter this by offering loads nad loads more saves when the illusion does anything, thus rendering those spells useless. So spells that win every fight, or they do nothing. Depends on the GM.
Why am I explaining how shit DnD is AGAIN? Isn't this the "isn't shadowrun shit?" thread?
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 8, 2015 0:05:51 GMT
I figured that was a reference to Shanis.
Hark... I'm not sure. I mean, DnD's mechanics seem fucked up too, but there isn't a problem with taking some of the stuff and making your own world from that while using the DnD mechanics. So having Orcs that aren't totally evil could work.
But I'll shut up about this. I don't know anything about these things. Save or die spells seem stupid though.
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Post by zaealix on Feb 8, 2015 0:09:05 GMT
I dunno about that...Well, It's kinda weird... Like, on the one hand, yes, you could toss the animal aspect and turn it into humans...But I feel like it works uniquely well here. animals to replace races allows for easier distinguishing of peoples, and allows more variety as a result. And the animal factor IS used for slurs and is a part of the culture, even to some degree to the West, if we look at their motto... (All Names forgotten, All Voices silenced, All Faces Covered!) Think about that a second, at least the last one (Which admittedly is probably not the line but something I threw in since it fit the theme, to me.) You could arguably say that among the West's goals is the elimination of the animal aspect, alongside the loss of cultures and possibly independant thought and action, and perhaps finally, individuality. All names forgotten. All Voices Silenced. All Faces Covered.
And besides, I think it helps play up the 'fantasy' aspect of Harkovast. You'd think the magic would be plenty but...It rather feels curiously muted. Like...Even the really flashy stuff isn't all that flashy, the Eldex and the Evils seem more like the 'classic' wizard where they CAN do amazing things but because of limitations are both more and less powerful then average citizens realize. Like only being able to do one magic thing a day but that magic thing could range up to 'part the Red Sea'.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 8, 2015 0:11:10 GMT
I like the animal bits too.
Maybe because I read Redwall when I was younger and loved it, despite all the flaws involved.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 8, 2015 0:19:27 GMT
I just got a kick out of a badger with a gun, and it went from there. Animals are cute.
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