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Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2018 23:41:47 GMT
I've been mulling over this film lately again. By far, the most disappointing of all things related to TLJ is the shape the discussion of the film took. On one hand, there are all the old SW fans angry with the movie for various failings, and Internet rightists trying oh-so-desperately convince them that it's all because of a SJW conspiracy to have movies about female Mary Sues and purple-haired feminist officers. Which is all stupid and sad, but really not unexpected by this point. On the other hand, there is a phenomenon I don't think I have seen before. It looks like the 90%/50% critics/audience split on Rotten Tomatoes is proving to be a really taxing cognitive dissonance for some of the film's fans, especially the reviewers who hold it in high regard. Instead of accepting the differing opinions and moving on, some of them seems to act like they're in a fortress besieged by bitter fanboys, bots, hackers, and nazis, and everyone who denies the greatness of The Last Jedi must be pigeonholed into one of the hater-arguments du jour, so that their opinion can be safely dismantled. (I mean, I feel even Canuovea tried to do something like that earlier in this thread) The newest meme seems to be that you can't say the movie is bad. Like, you can dislike it or not enjoy it, but saying you thought it's a bad movie is just objectively wrong, look, here are all the reasons the movie is actually great, and all critics love it, and also shut up fanboy, ha, so sorry Rey didn't turn out to be related to Obi-Wan, bet you're still bitter about that! It's become a hip thing to shit on SW fanboys and even people who just made theories about Episode 8, because apparently they ruined it. But who did they ruin it for? Certainly not the people who enjoyed it. And if they ruined it for themselves, why should anyone care? Is that 50% on RT really that unbearable for some people? It's messed up. One argument in defence of the movie that I thought about more, because it seemed to make at least some sense to me, is that the movie doesn't really do any worse than the old trilogy. After all, didn't the heroes achieve jack shit in Empire Strikes Back as well? Weren't Force powers just made up on the spot whenever needed and never foreshadowed or explained, and people were fine with that? Wasn't SW plagued with mediocre dialogues for the entirety of its existence? This bugged me a little bit because, well, are we really somehow unconsciously biased so much that we blame this movie for something we used to accept? I don't like the idea of me being unconsciously biased. But then it hit me. SW movies have always sucked, all of them. I remember watching the original trilogy as a young teenager, so at an age when you're supposed to be the most susceptible to its wiles. And it failed to leave any impression on me. I just kind of shrugged at the end with mild disappointment. In fact, I thought the characters are annoyingly bland, except for Darth Vader… which is pretty much the same thing I now think of the sequels' cast, except for Kylo Ren. So to summarize, my deal with SW is as such: 1. I never cared for any SW movies at all. I don't hate any of them (except for Phantom Menace, which was a waste of everyone's time). I just don't care. 2. The SW universe has some really neat ideas and imagery, which I enjoyed exploring through some peripheral works. 3. The sequels are probably the most terrible in establishing a world worthy of suspension of disbelief, which is probably why I don't like them at all. Plus, no one was ever trying to convince me that the prequels are the best thing ever and only nazis don't like them. And with this, I can go free and leave Star Wars behind. And just to piss off movie fans, because I'm feeling extra cynical today: if I think about it, I don't really much like movies in general. If they don't have some artistic or stylistic values that are specific to the medium and are just trying to tell a regular story (which is the category genre movies like SW generally fall into), they're going to probably always be inferior to books, serials and even in some cases video games for me, if only due to the fact that they have comparatively little time to set up anything interesting.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 23, 2018 0:07:25 GMT
Yeah there is an odd trend for being mad at people for not liking it. Like I owe disney my love or something, or I'm harming some greater cause by not accepting a terrible fucking film I had to sit through.
Though I think its a bit harsh to tar Canuovea with that brush. I thought he presented a fairly honest case. I mean I think he was totally wrong, I absolutely HATED the movie, but I don't think he argued his case in bad faith. And honestly, he was stepping into the lions den against all the last jedi haters we have around here!
As for the originals being bad, I cant accept that. My kids watch them a lot and they still hold up for me. But you can't please everyone!
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Post by Horsie on Jan 23, 2018 1:37:45 GMT
Most things about the original trilogy were made up on the fly, it's amazing things went as well as they did.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 23, 2018 3:16:43 GMT
Well, I suppose I could have been a bit aggressive. I don't really remember. Maybe I was too nice...
Here, let me make up for that.
Someone on the Internet released a defeminized version of Star Wars 8. They took out all women doing authority things and some other stuff they didn't like.
Therefore, obviously, Hark you'd like it better, you misogynist you... Nah, that's not why, you'd like it more because they also removed all the humour.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 23, 2018 3:22:35 GMT
Humour is a plot by the SJW snowflakes to make men think non-white immigration and women in the workforce won't destroy Western civilization.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 23, 2018 4:23:07 GMT
If they could remove all the things that happened and replace them with other things I would be even happier.
Women make everything worse, including the planet earth, the human race and hetrosexual sex. They were invented by the main stream media to undermine both men and bloated sci fi film franchises.
There are editted versions of the prequals that try to remove all the silliness and make the films more sensible, but they end up miserable and boring. Stupid as the stuff happening was, without it you realise how dry, miserable and boring all the other stuff really was.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 23, 2018 4:56:41 GMT
The only one I saw was the first movie; maybe they should have removed all of the fucking trade negotiations, that'd be a massive improvement even if they left Jar Jar Binks in it.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 23, 2018 5:41:16 GMT
Recently rewatched those.
The second one was the most flawed, but also had the most potential. The first had Jar Jar. The third was just boring because it relied on the relationships established (or not established) in the second one. My girlfriend and I literally started doing sewing while watching the third one.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 23, 2018 9:22:17 GMT
Though I think its a bit harsh to tar Canuovea with that brush. I thought he presented a fairly honest case. Generally yes. But I guess I disliked the "you didn't like it… oh, are you SW fans?" part, for various reasons, primarily because it seemed to accept the premise that silly sentimentality is the only reason people reject the masterpiece. As for the originals being bad, I cant accept that. My kids watch them a lot and they still hold up for me. But you can't please everyone! You may hereby feel better about me criticizing Harkovast, cause not even Star Wars can evade my scrutiny. Maybe "bad" is saying much, but… SW was supposed to be this huge childhood-defining franchise from before I was born. It's like hearing all your life up to that point that green eggs and ham was what Siddhartha dined on before attaining enlightenment, and to this day remain a traditional initiation dish by a monastic covenant that spans over generations and the entire globe. And then you eat it and it tastes like any old eggs and ham, just with a dash of laser swords. They weren't bad, really, just the impact they had on me was nothing compared to some other works of fiction. Although I nowadays tend to aggressively avoid works that too many people consider must watches/reads/plays. So you could say, for me it's not fan theories that ruin works. It's raving reviews. Checkmate critics? Most things about the original trilogy were made up on the fly, it's amazing things went as well as they did. Yeah. But maybe partly because they didn't keep introducing side characters for no reason and stuck to one thing. They were invented by the main stream media to undermine both men and bloated sci fi film franchises. I thought women were invented by the devil? Though maybe this is a version believed by modern boys who are too rational for religion. Did they also remove the cow-milking scene? I thought it was communist social engineering to teach boys to never question female power! By the way, I've seen at least several reviews saying something to the effect of "If you thought you disliked TLJ you're wrong (and here's why)". I think it's safe to say the Ouroboros of stupid has completed its lap. After we killed the past and dealt with those judgmental, gatekeeping, argumentative fanboys of the old trilogy that would decry people as not true fans if they didn't agree with them exactly, we're left with judgmental, gatekeeping, argumentative fanboys of TLJ who will decry you as not true fan if you dislike TLJ.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 23, 2018 10:30:59 GMT
My point in asking that was because some of my friends had noticed a trend and I wondered if it held true here. I was curious.
That being said, fans are the worst and should be taken out and shot. On the charge of hysteria.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 23, 2018 14:33:55 GMT
Yeah StyxD I know what you mean. When I[ve google last jedi what comes up at the top isn't reviews, or people bashing it...its people defending the film. There are tons of these articles explainnig why people who don't like it are both wrong and morally suspect. They are all offering weird justifications, like "Here is why THAT Leia scene made perfect sense" and "Answering the top 5 criticisms of the Last Jedi". This is asside from the flat out "If you dont like last jedi, you hate women" stuff (thats not me exaggerating, thats pretty much a real title of one.)
I've never seen this for a film before. I've seen films that some people didn't like, but the idea of the media (and its left wing outlets all doing it) trying to convince me so desperately to like something is really strange. It's like the movie has become some kind of cause or something.
Normally when a film is good, there isn't a big media campaign to persuade people "Actually it IS good, you just don't get it, let me explain why it's good to you!" Normally a good film doesn't need an army of media shills to defend it. It's almost like the people posting this stuff kinda know they are shills, just repeating the corporately approved mantra, and so are getting a bit defensive that people are noticing. Why else would "there are people out there who don't like a film" be a problem? I've even read articles saying things like "Last Jedi is NOT a flop" justifiying how it actually made tons of money and was not a disappointed. It was in Forbes I think. Weirdly specific denial there Forbes....I haven't met anyone who thinks the film didn't make a shit ton of money...now I kinda wonder if it fell below targets or the people at the top are getting worried at the reaction.
It's hard for me to relate to what they are doing because Im not threatened by people not liking it. They can like or dislike whatever they want. My posts about the movie are "the movie was shit and here is why" not "If you like it you are wrong" or "people who don't like it are shits" (I think the media people rushing to the films defence are a bunch of shits, but thats a different subsection and its not just because they like it) or refuting the key reasons people enjoyed it. It was just me saying what I thought of the thing.
I think everything these days, especially stuff coming out of America gets turned into this big culture war, where there are good guys nad bad guys. Since media is so important these days, all big prominent media gets treated the same. So this film, and wonder woman, and ghost busters 2016 are declared good and progressive and so you have to like them regardless of quality or personal taste. Like it's a sign of loyalty that you love them because they are diverse and have women and show how bad mansplaining is (I'm not being sarcastic, there is a real, totally serious article about how great Last Jedi is because its a condemnation of the evils of mansplaining. Yes, really.) It feels like some kind of soviet shit, where we all have to cheer the party approved artists because they are ideologically correct, not because they are any good.
I find the articles talking how wonderfully diverse star wars is now and how you are racist if you don't like it pretty embarrassing...mainly because Disney downplayed Finn on the Chinese poster because there's a lot of hostility to blacks in China and now all the movies have lots of new Asian characters....can we connect the dots here? Casting a top Kung-fu action star in Rogue One in a promanant, but unimportant to the plot, role must have been for diversity I'm sure. Face facts, social justice kids, Disney doesn't care about diversity, they care about money. Right now China has a lot of that. They aren't being inclusive, they are pandering to a new audience who they are desperate to make care about this franchise. Rose wasn't there to make Tumblr fans feel special, she was there to try to break the Chinese market (who don't give a shit about Star Wars as they never had the original movies when they first came out so don't have nostalgia goggles.)
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 23, 2018 20:18:43 GMT
Yet they have the Chinese female fall in love with the black man? Sorry Hark, but if they were concerned with the sensibilities of the Chinese audience they definitely would not have done that. That is a big no no in China.
Not saying that Disney gives a shit about social justice, but they don't give enough of a shit about Chinese sensibilities to have stepped in to stop that ridiculous romantic subplot.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 23, 2018 22:55:00 GMT
Yeah that romance was weird wasn't it? They never really had any chemistry and then at the end she declares her love after that nonsensical "I must sacrifice myself to stop you sacrificing yourself" nonsense. Its really odd because the best thing in the first film was Finn and Rey being together and having great chemistry, then in this one they keep them apart for 99.9% of the movie. That was the good thing that made me over look some of the terrible story line in the last one, where was that?
Im not saying everything they do is a pander to china (they would just not put the black guy in at all if that was the case) but its certainly something that plays into what they do. The one with the poster might be more coincidental...though the casting of Chinese stars in Rogue One was pretty overt. Honestly casting chinese people to try to appeal to china is futile. Chinese people mainly get chinese films. So while people over here may bang on about diversity, no one actually in China gives a toss. There is a whole thing these days of wanting to sell movies in china, but the west seems to not be quite sure what China likes. The main thing that seems to sell are dumb special affect films that dont need you to understand the dialogue too much, so they cross the language barrier easily. Supposedly something that helped the Warcraft movie is that its very easy to dub CGI characters to say whatever you want, more so than real humans, so to the chinese audience it worked well.
With regard to being super feminist, as the media seems to be telling me it is, I found the gender roles in this movie kind of embarrassing. Leia and admiral Purple over look mutiny because they get all hot and bothered over what a bad boy Poe is. Rose is a fan girl with a crush.(Aside form both being utterly weak and in competant and Leia even deferring to idiot traitor Poe at the end.) Rey is getting flustered at Kylo getting his shirt off...I think? That scene was wierd and confusing and tonally all over the place.
Seriously, the ladies in this galaxy need to stop thinking with their ovaries and concentrate on the space battles!
So people telling me this movie is sme great leap or woman kind...I dunno did these people only start watching movies a week before this came out? Or they've seen nothing but the cinematic works of michael bay?
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 23, 2018 23:34:09 GMT
Another argument about why this movie is genius that I read was that its a brilliant take down of the whole pick up artist scene. You see Kylo is "negging" Rey when he tells her shes not one important, but shes important to him. Yes this was a real article someone was paid actual money to write.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 23, 2018 23:52:23 GMT
They may be stretching things a bit, but I can see that scene being inspired by pickup artist bullshit, those guys are pretty hateful.
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