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Post by Canuovea on Jan 7, 2019 22:03:44 GMT
Eh, Black Panther was fine. Maybe better than Infinity War, to be honest, I'm not sure as I wasn't really impressed with either.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 7, 2019 22:17:34 GMT
Well yeah the other big factor is super hero burn out. How many years ago was the orignal iron man? Where at the end he fights IronER man. Now we've got black panther fighting BlackER panther at the end.
Don't get me wrong, its all fun watching them jump around. And I'm deliberately over thinking Black Panther to be a loveable scamp, as is my way. But these movies do get a bit meh after a while.
Thor Ragnorok stood out and I really enjoyed that, but a lot of the others just become so much noise. But they keep making crazy money so what the fuck do I know?
Marvel super hero movies are like macdonalds. Thats not a criticism, I like eating at macdonalds. The point of macdonalds is that its reliable. You know what you are goign to get. I can over a big mac any where in the world and it will be the same. Marvel films are like that. They have a base line of quality they only occasionally drop below (iron man 2 and age of ultron being the main offenders.) Most of the time even when they aren't that good, they aren't bad. I dont think theyve ever had too bad ones in a row either. They are dependable rather than amazing most of the time, which is what you need for a big franchise. if they were sometimes godlike and then sometimes dreadful, people wouldnt keep coming back as two bad ones back to back would have killed it. But instead they are just mostly okay to good, and that gives them the reliablity to keep going.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 7, 2019 23:03:50 GMT
The thing about Black Panther is that the idea is very progressive... for 1966. Kirby and Lee developed the character as a very obvious commentary on equal rights. There were people who considered black people inferior and based that idea on the fact that Africa largely had low technological development. IE black people were too stupid to invent things. Kirby and Lee proposed that the only reason for that was that Africa is rather scarce on natural resources such as iron. The idea being if you dropped a huge amount of an insanely useful (and often magical) resource into the heart of the continent the people there would use it like any other human being would and thrive. They were just as intelligent as anybody else. What's more they were just as suspicious of people who didn't look like them misusing that resource.
The problem was that Kirby and Lee, as well meaning as they were, still had their own prejudices. Wakanda tended to have a lot of tribal influences in it complete with spears and war paint. Most likely due to "jungle hero" pulp magazine heroes they grew up with such as Tarzan and The Phantom.
Though they did way better than DC, who's high tech African country was populated by intelligent gorillas.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 7, 2019 23:11:06 GMT
I kinda like the idea that wakanda makes things look tribal, like thats just the look wakanda's like. They could make their stuff look like anything, but tribal african things and animals appeal to them.
Of course it goes a bit far when they are literally throwing spears at people and having fighting rituals to determine their leaders!
When the tribal thing stops seeming just like a aesthetic choice and seems like its actually how they are it feels less like they are advanced and more like they are primitives someone handed ray guns to.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 7, 2019 23:20:06 GMT
Like look at this guy... There is only guy who has one! How does he even talk? Is he just a slave to really extreme wakandan fashion? But then why is he in a western style suit? Are Wakandans copying outside fashion now? But combining it with freaky body modification? What the hell is going on? And are those laser spears? Cause sometimes they literally throw their spears at each other in the movie.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 7, 2019 23:26:05 GMT
A film gimic I've started to hate is the thing where a character who is bad ass in an all covering suit and mask shows up who either doesn't talk or talks through a voice modulator thing....WOMAN! IT'S A WOMAN, ISN'T? Oh I'm sorry movie, did I spoil your twist? Was it supposed to be a twist? I didn't really perceive it as such because it would be pretty lame. But you may be right, alas. But the idea of a female Darth Vader (Darth Mutter?) is a pretty interesting one, if you ask me. There just aren't that many female villains that fit that particular badass archetype (didn't see Incredibles 2, so can't comment). But then again, they had Phasma and they fucked her up so badly… Maybe this is just me being a racist...but I always thought Wakanda was really silly. It doesn't seem to make any sense at all but everyone acts like its such an amazing idea and such a wonderful place now. They have an absolute monarch who is chosen by trial by combat! I've always taken issue with Wakanda that I'm having trouble putting into words. Ever since I've read a summary on Marvel wiki about it. It was well before Black Panther the movie, so maybe they presented things better there - although nothing I've seen or heard made me think so. Wakanda just feels like something white American dudes would come up with around the sixties to show that they respect black Africans and think they would be just as capable of producing an advanced technological civilization as white people, or even better! If only they happened to stumble upon some magical physics-defying rocks! It's like they're trying to show that a historically downtrodden group is awesome and all, but they correct so much in the other direction that they end up with a Mary-Sueish caricature of real people that's honestly kind of insulting. Because the moral of Wakanda seems to be that Africans would only be able to produce civilization equal to the West if they had magic minerals to help them. Like… to me it's just insulting the intelligence of people who it's supposed to be uplifting for. But maybe I'm in a minority with this reading of the story. Incidentally, it seems very similar to how native Americans are treated in Shadowrun, which I think was discussed on this forum in the RPG section. Shadowrun shows us that First Nations could once again rise with dignity and sovereignty… if they happen to get magical powers one day. You don't die of malnutrition in America! Uh… no one ever does? Next you're going to tell me there are no cats in America (and maybe that's why you had to move back to the UK when your true identity was discovered). The fact their economy is based on just one thing would do the same as the lack of trade, it would ultimately make them poorer. Look at Saudi Arabia. Their one super resource serves to make them backward as it lets corrupt leaders consolidate power. There is no way the royal family wouldn't be total tyrants. Well, I'm not sure if it's a good analogy. Most of the states that get reach of one resource they happen to sit on do so by trading the resource with outside world and getting money. It's easy then to have corrupt leaders just keep the gains all for themselves. Wakanda obviously doesn't export vibranium, they seem to just use it to make life easy and plentiful for themselves. And they don't seen to have a scarcity of vibranium problem, so the leaders would have nothing to gain by hoarding it. Their king is also their pope and he has super powers! That's horrifying! Wait, isn't it exactly like Great Britain? Minus the superpowers, of course… or is it? No one ever saw the Queen and Wonder Woman in the same room, just saying. I am sure the poor Wakandans would vote for something else...if they could vote...and they can't. And a man in armoured cat pjammmas will kick the shit out of them if they try. Also sounds surprisingly like what happens in Great Britain if someone asks why are they still having the monarchy. It's why America had to preventively ban cats in their declaration of independence.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 7, 2019 23:34:15 GMT
Ten years ago I thought black panther was funny adn silly for the reasons people have said here. It was well intentionned but hokey and and goofy (the black super hero has black in his name and is an african prince.) It wasn't malicious or offensive but it was kinda cringey and dated. The guy eats a magic heart shaped herb! He has a special material called VIBRANIUM! Its all so silly even by super hero standards!
Now it seems like its some big inspirational message to people and its really important and stuff. I mean if they get a lot from it that's great, but it makes me worry a bit abotu the direction we are going as a society, that a pretty crude antiracism message is seen as cutting edge social commentary again.
If I made something like Wakanda, I would want to make it better in some ways nad worse in others. Wakanda gets presented as kidn of wonderful, like its some fantastic vision of a culture (even when its demonstrably shitty!) I'd want more of a sense that wakanda has amazing stuff but is bad at other stuff so they could learn something from us too. Like we could cooperate and share our cultures and benefit. Rather than the world gets a hand out of their magic rocks and we all act like primitive tribalism is cool and awesome.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 7, 2019 23:59:18 GMT
I mean if they get a lot from it that's great, but it makes me worry a bit abotu the direction we are going as a society, that a pretty crude antiracism message is seen as cutting edge social commentary again. Eh, maybe it's reading to deep into it. People are probably just glad that they made a pop-cultural blockbuster that has a mostly black cast. I don't think it has been ever done. Although it made me realize something even more iffy about Wakanda. Can you imagine someone plopping a secret civilization in the middle of Europe that's better and more advanced than everyone around it? No, that would just be silly, there's no place for it on the map anyway. Or maybe a secret not-China inside of China that's better and more advanced than the real China? I can't imagine that going well. Wakanda can only exist in Africa because we as the West seem to treat Africa like some mysterious undiscovered land, and existing nations and ethnicities there as replaceable and not important. But it doesn't really matter for the most part what actual Africans think of Wakanda. They aren't the target market. So make that American 'hood great again, T'Challa! (Yes, I'm perpetually salty about American cultural imperialism, thanks for not asking.)
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 8, 2019 0:07:53 GMT
Words to live by!
Apparently, based on where Wakanda is on the map, there are actual genocides and wars and fleeing refugees that we have to assume in the marvel world were turned away by the uncaring Wakandans. Sadly it turns out there aren't any real empty places on the map where no events happened (except in the Arctic, and that's only until Richard Spencer and his racially pure cums head out there nad start their ethno state.)
Though marvel aint racist! Stan the man wasn't about that!
There IS a special made up country in Europe in Marvel! Latvaria or some shit. The stupid place Dr Doom comes from. Their main exports are evil robots, evil plans and DOOOOOOM! (Both figarative and the good doctor.)
Fortunately they put it in eastern europe, ie the weird bit of europe we don't talk about. All those countries are all inter changeable. I mean its all pretty much wannabe russians once you get east of Germany, right StyxD? Hungaria, Bulgaria, Malaria, who the hell knows whats going on over there. Its cold and weird and best avoided by all decent, right thinking folk!
Interestingly the made up european country is bad (though highly advanced thanks to Doom) while the made up african country is good.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 8, 2019 0:28:42 GMT
I mean its all pretty much wannabe russians once you get east of Germany, right StyxD? It's funny, because I heard about someone describing Poland (in 18th century, I think) as "Russians who think they're French", which I find to have a hilarious grain of truth to it. In fact, in the 18th century Russians themselves were wannabe French, just ask tzar Peter the Great. Interestingly the made up european country is bad (though highly advanced thanks to Doom) while the made up african country is good. See, that's just the thing. It's not unusual to make up fictional places for villains to control. Hell, this even happens to the US itself: Far Cry 5 takes place in a fictional county in a stereotypically conservative state of USA, where the bad white supremacist Christian cult guy has his bad white supremacist Christian cult town. I mean, it's just safer this way, to generally hint what kind of culture the villain comes from but not single out any real place as the Heart of Darkness. But I think Wakanda is the only example I can think of that does the reverse; creating for the hero a fictional country to be straight up better than any other country in the region the work is ostensibly supposed to be making homage to.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 8, 2019 2:10:28 GMT
You know where I expect there's a super secret evil civilization?
Canada.
I mean, most Canadians live within 100 miles of the US boarder.
What the hell are they afraid of up there?
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 8, 2019 5:37:33 GMT
Actually, Asia kind of has had its own versions of Wakanda. Not in Marvel, I'm sure, though you could argue that the magical Dr. Strange magic monk people kinda count. No, magical places like Shangri-La and so forth. There was even a bad musical made about it. Though those places, of course, "naturally" have a veil of "Asian Mysticism Magic Crap" about them rather than "Advanced Technology".
That all being said, doesn't Europe actually have a Wakanda? I thought Switzerland counted as an isolated society that was somehow better than everyone around it? I mean, if you ask the Swiss at least.
And, in defense of "Not-Lion King", I kinda like Wakanda. I mean, aside from how they don't seem to know how to deploy themselves logically to fight somebody, I think they make a certain amount of sense. I see Hark here being like: "Well, they're a monarchy! And they practice barbaric rituals like fighting for kingship!" Yes, to people in the West that shit is pretty weird. But that being said, why would we expect this society to reflect our own values? They're advanced and all that, but that doesn't necessarily equate to disliking monarchy or not fighting to the death. Is an advanced society of good guys who don't conform to Western Values really such a bad thing?
Also the King of Wakanda is not the Pope. Pretty sure there is a shamanistic sort of dude that is part of it. I mean, Hotspur/Scar Jr. does kill that guy and all, but... yeah.
Disk in lip guy is also, it seems, a representative of a different Wakandan tribe. There are a lot of different tribes, but they're not all seen so it just looks like that one guy.
Also, they certainly don't trade Vibranium. Vibranium is the key to their technology, but their wealth is all internal. In fact they make it look like they are poor by not trading with outsiders. Wakanda is, it seems, what North Korea wishes it could be: Internally Self Sufficient. An actual functioning Autarky. They're basically fine as they are. They start interacting with the outside world because of a moral obligation. Presumably, and this is suggested by other parts of the movie, they do go help out other nations in Africa and such. But the whole outreach in America thing is interesting because it shows how Wakanda views America: Not any better than their other neighbours who need help. It also demonstrates their reach. As for why focus on it? Well, it has familial significance to T'Chala.
My main problem with Black Panther is... it's basically The Lion King.
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Post by zaealix on Jan 8, 2019 14:30:49 GMT
(Warning, this is gonna be rambly and a tad unfocused due to not having sorted this out into a cohesive little blurb)
Wanna know what I think the problem is? It feels like right now in America at least, there's this hypersensitivity that I think is basically borne of attempting to be apologetic to peoples who got rolled by the Europeans. And Africa/Africans are the poster child of that what with the connection to slavery/ongoing internal crisis due to so many warbands or w/e (I haven't looked that deeply into it but I feel like I keep hearing stories about wars and fighting coming from in there.) cross that with how blacks are commonly associated with poverty and crime, and you can see how it feels like they suffered for the white man's sins. The problem as I see it, is folks aren't using the right logic about it. It's all Boardgame position, that's how prestige works. So yes, Africans got the short end of the stick. Give it time and they'll eventually sort themselves out, both in America and abroad. The problem is alot of people are looking and going 'OMG we need to help now!' and we're getting alot of short-term trying to bail them out that only draws more attention to the problem, instead of actually solving it.
Also, the prestige points they DO have get ignored all over the place. 1. Egypt- 'nuff said. 2. Mansa Musa was a thing back in the day, so it's not like Egypt is the only thing going for Africa. 3. The 70's were a fine time for Black folks as I recall, it's just things went poopy from there for some reason (I've heard the whole 'drug war' thing in the 80s did bad things to Black folks, but I've also only looked but so deeply into the subject.) And point number 4. Obama, again, 'nuff said. The problem is a consistant narrative of being the guy in last place relative to other nations and ethnicities. Even if it's not wrong, doing fantasy stories focused around 'what if Africa DIDN'T SUCK' just emphasizes how much they do suck in RL.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 8, 2019 17:14:33 GMT
I'm skeptical that a country that is culturally backward would also be scientifically advanced. In the real world its the democracies and open societies that advance. The idea that a country with no trade, a totalitarian government nad lots of superstition would be MORE advanced than liberal democracies just doesn't seem credible to me. I guess you can rub vibranium on stuff and it does what ever you want, but I'm not convinced that it would play out that way. To be clear, I don't hate Wakanda, its an interesting idea, but the execution always seems off to me. I think a big part of that is the need to make Wakanda look good. There's a bit of weird political thing with it. As I said, the idea of advanced people with a tribal aesthetic is cool to me. Maybe if their technology was advanced in some ways but backwards in others. Like telecommunications. Wakanda is a small place and they have zero interest in talking to the rest of the world, so stuff for messaging people far away might seem redundant. Also if they had shortages of certain materials they can't get (or can you use vibranium for literally everything?) so that limits some of their achievements. I would imagine the wakandan military would have individually powerful troops with forcefields and laser guns, but as an army they wouldn't be much use. considering Wakanda has literally never fought a war and has never needed to, I don't think they would have invested much effort in multibranched military operations. That could be kind of cool if the Wakandas saw makign weapons as a reason the outside world is dangerous and full of barbarians. There's a concept a bit like that in harkovast....but now I've said too much.
I tell you what would fix a lot...if the king wasn't such an absolute monarch. I want some checks and balances! In the movie Killmonger gets to be king and immediately says hes goign to start a war with basically the entire planet. Some kind of tribal council maybe? That the king has to okay his stuff by?
I don't think black panther is literally the pope equivilant, though he represents there panther god in some way (gimme a break, I'm not an expert!) He is certainly a very important religious figure. A bit like the queen leading the church of England....shit i'm proving StyxD right now.
Secret places to live are a bit of a super hero trope. Wonder Woman comes from Amazon Island, which is hidden out at sea and Aquaman lives under the water, and Submariner has some underwater thing as well in marvel...arguably better places to hide out! Super hero worlds are always chock full of secret countries...and none of them are democratic!
Zaelix yeah I think people like a clear narrative, where who is oppressed and who is the bad guys are really clear and we can resolve things in some way. Too many movies if you ask me! (How ironic on this thread.) In real life its just a continuation of events where things get better and they get worse and the train never stops, but we each get left behind by it eventually.
ALRIGHT! HERE'S WHAT WE SHOULD DO! LET'S MAKE OUR OWN SECRET SUPER COUNTRY
What's a cool place in the world to put a secret country where no one has done one before? It can be magic, or technological and clearly there will be at least one super hero who comes from there. Its unknown to the outside world and its an amazing, wonderous spin on some real world culture or place...where should we put it?
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 8, 2019 17:28:35 GMT
We could put it far north in canada, that's possible...
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