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Post by Harkovast on Jan 31, 2016 11:40:52 GMT
The religions in Harkovast are one of my favourite elements, especially in the way that they over lap/relate to each other. I thought I would layout here which ones connect to each other to show how wide spread certain faiths are. I'm not listing every faith here, just the ones that are wide spread enough to have several different nations support them.
Shaldemos worhsip- Nymus Republic Gotetra Empire Rotetra Kingdom Ivos Empire
Thane- Galdrasai Darsai Al-Saigal Cansaibe
The Enlightened Path- White Kingdom Tsung-Dao
Dac and Vek- Naljat Gotetra Lukavir
Sky God- Foshtor Kumaru
Brorg-Dao Pantheon- Brorg-Dao Gotetra
White Mother/All Mother- Golta Zadakine
Are there any wide spread faiths I missed?
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Post by Horsie on Jan 31, 2016 18:28:29 GMT
You forgot the upstart All Mother sect in the Gotetra Empire.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 1, 2016 23:13:34 GMT
Gotetra will worship pretty much anything, evidently! But it remains to be seen if that sect is going to catch on...
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 1, 2016 23:30:55 GMT
Interesting that Zha-Tsung claimed she got her "enlightened path" from Eldex. And yet, the White Kingdom has it too... hmm... interesting, one might start to wonder about Eldex.
You're missing the Komus from Shaldemos... kinda. I mean, they focus on Korvetor, but...
I suppose lumping all the races into the White Kingdom makes some sense. The variation is mostly regional. Even the Wu-Yao follow the Enlightened Path, yes?
For comparison, it might be neat to have the atheists be present on the list. It might not be a religion, per se, but it is a similar belief.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2016 0:09:25 GMT
Yes, everyone in the White Kingdom follows the Enlightened Path. The Enlightened Path is a philosophy and view of the universe. Specific races follow particular gods on it, but its all recognisable as one theology. The whole idea of mortals achieving enlightenment and becoming gods is the central belief , as well as gods being divine examples to follow more than figures of worship, though many do believe the gods can intervene in their day to day lives. The exact source of Zha-Tsung's wisdom is unclear and different stories are told about where she might have travelled to.
Atheists- Tolpish Lel Levengroust.
It should be noted, these cultures have beliefs and ideologies, and don't necessarily deny the existance of the supernatural, but they lack what could be described as an actual religion.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2016 3:19:48 GMT
Gee Hark.
Looking at that list, one would think that you were some kind of anti-atheist.
One of them could easily be called out and out evil.
Another is Fascistic, known for being sort of bland, except for a penchant towards gassing people. Doesn't mean they're not cool, but...
And the Lel... well, we know little enough about them, but while they're in theory nice enough, they did raise the Skyman and they also almost never, ever, get anything done because they're so wrapped up in their own affairs... which they also don't do much on unless it is fully unanimous. Also, they're known for running away.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2016 19:01:32 GMT
The Levengroust weren't facist! They were a monarchy, ruled by a Kaiser! They were militant by modern standards but were less militant than the Galdrasai (infact their own militancy was a response to being in conflict with the galdrasai.) Levengroust viewed talking about the after life or higher powers to be tasteless and possibly offensive. They considered such things unknowable and thought it was a waste of time to dwell on them. They had a great sense of patriotism and viewed loyalty to the state and working for the nation to be the most important goals.
The Lel put everything up for debate and discussion and attack all assumptions aggressively (some would say tiresomely!) Supernatural claims that cannot be supported by physical, demonstrable evidence simply don't fit into their world view.
The Tolpish gave up on their gods after a series of set backs and their exile from Vellastrom. They don't necessarily believe their gods didn't exist, but that their gods failed them and were not longer deserving of respect. They tend to take the same view with other peoples gods, pointing to the fact that no divine intervention helped the Bardabor or Cansaibe. They do have an extremely militant, racist ideology that makes the empire effectively the object of veneration.
I don't think its fair to describe Tolpish as "evil" universally. Their culture has become really violent and aggressive, but its not like there is nothing worthy of merit in their way of life, and there are plenty of individual Tolpish who aren't evil (we've seen this in the comic and rpg.)
The reason you dont see a huge humber of atheist societies is because- A- These societies are more primitive and primitive societies generally have religions and superstitions. B- I like making up interesting religions. At one poitn the zadakine were going to be cynical atheists, but then I start having really cool ideas for a weird god they could worship. I keep inventing gods! I can't help it!
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2016 19:20:52 GMT
Your reasons make logical sense, but have you sacrificed the hearts of any theists upon your alter of Darwin today? You better, just to be sure the great Nothing we pray to doesn't take offense.
Maybe the Levengroust aren't that bad, maybe, but they use gas, which makes them evil. Also "great sense of patriotism and viewed loyalty to the state and working for the nation to be the most important goals" sounds a little fascist leaning (though not as much if 'nation' there was replaced with 'Kaiser' or whoever is in charge). Now sure, a Kaiser represents a Monarchy, but hey, Napoleon was an "Emperor" and is basically an example of proto-fascism. And the Kaiser is basically the supreme leader of the Levengroust, yes? Is their power checked by anyone who can balance him out or overrule him?
Though even if the Levengroust somewhat fascist, that doesn't necessarily make the Galdrasai any better... oh not at all. They've got a nearly modern state apparatus grafted to a militaristic, expansionist, religion. That's kind of terrifying.
Oh god, the Lel are made up of a collective of Hamlets! They can't get anything done! If a Lel suspected that their Uncle killed their father and married their mother, what would they do?
'Aside from The West, the only culture I could say is closest to being objectively evil is The Knarl Empire.' - Paraphrasing Hark, several years back. It is kind of funny how the Tolpish just discarded their gods for being useless though, that's really neat.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 2, 2016 19:31:23 GMT
Is this really the face of evil? Really Canuovea?
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2016 19:40:31 GMT
No, but this is. The skunks are just kinda... authoritarian.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 2, 2016 19:48:53 GMT
The Knarl Empire is evil, but that doesn't mean all elements of Tolpish culture are evil. There exists a Tolpish culture that the Tolpish partake of that other races in their empire do not, and its not universally bad. Yeah, overall they are a race thats likely to be in the role of villain, but I don't want to just paint them all with a broad brush as a bunch of villains whose world view is totally without any redeeming qualities.
The Lel thrive on disagreement but abhore physical conflict. Violence or using ones thoughts to plot or invent for the purpose of destruction and death is unspeakable to them. The Lel see other races in Harkovast as hulking barbarians, obsessed with fighting, killing and stealing from each other. The Lel have always had a fear that the more they interract with these other races the more chance that they will be dragged into these conflicts and end up using their talents for fighting rather than expanding their knowledge. If a Lel was thought to have murdered another, this would require great investigation, debate, and overly complicated system of trials and procedures to determine guilt and innocence. Lel prize knowledge as an end in itself and are desperate not to be corrupted and diverted from the pure pursuit of it. The down side to this is that while they don't want to hurt anyone, it tends to lead them not to want to help anyone either. If they start helping one group, they will end in inadvertantly taking sides and getting mixed up in other nations politics. The Lel try to be none interventionalist as much as possible.
Lots of races in Harkovast are militant, the Levengroust were far from the most militant. The Kaiser had some limits on his power, needing the support from nobles in some matters, but had a greaet deal of authority and was viewed with great veneration by his subjects. The Levengroust used weapons like gas, guns and other strange inventions because the Galdrasai were probably the most effectively warrior race Harkovast had ever seen. The Levengroust simply couldn't match them in a straight fight going man to man without using their inventiveness to tip the odds in their favour. While the Levengroust weren't whimps and their soldiers weren't push overs, but going for a direct clash of strength all the time against the Galdrasai would be fighting their enemies on their terms. To the levengroust, the Galdrasai were mad, blood thirsty savages who were obsessed with combat and violence in the name of their frightening god. The Levengroust saw themselves as using their cunning, cleverness and invention to even the odds against such a powerful enemy. (The Galdrasai, of course, didn't see it that way.) Their system of government was no more facist than a lot in Harkovast. I think you just judge them harshly because they have a Germanic style to them. Think first world war, not second!
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Post by Horsie on Feb 2, 2016 19:49:04 GMT
But that have to be united in the face of the threat posed by the expansionist Galdrasai!
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2016 20:05:17 GMT
No, rabbits are evil, haven't you seen Watership Down? Even the good bunnies in that are evil!
That must have made the Skyman an interesting situation for the Lel. Considering he took "advancing knowledge" a little far.
I know the Lel are more WW1-ey than WW2-ey... though honestly, that system was also... well, you can see why fascism took root. After all, the earlier incarnation of Germany, Prussia, has been called a "Military with a state attached to it." Though it seems the Levengroust are actually a bit different in that respect, which actually intrigues me. Also, the Kaiser not having supreme power largely reduces the charge of "fascism", even if the idea of mixing patriotism with an authoritarian system still tends towards it.
That being said, I think if they were ever to make a Total War game for Harkovast, I'd rather play the Levengroust than the Galdrasai, because it could be more interesting to do so.
That's totally something you should do too. Once CA is done with Warhammer Total War, pitch this to them. They could do Vellastrom, then Jaydia, then maybe even Xalkara. I'd pay money for that.
As for who I like more... The Galdrasai are religious fanatics. Then again, the Levengroust are apparently not that big on philosophy, whereas the Galdrasai are... hmm. The Galdrasai's style of actually fighting is more appealing, but the Levengroust are more clever in their use of tactics and equipment. The Galdrasai have a greater gender role divide, the Levengroust seem to lack one.
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Post by Horsie on Feb 2, 2016 20:22:17 GMT
More nationalism than anything else I'd say, and it doesn't seem like belligerent nationalism either.
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 2, 2016 20:31:16 GMT
Nationalism is an important component of fascism.
But yes.
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