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Post by Canuovea on Nov 11, 2016 21:22:29 GMT
Hillary lost because she's a lady? Well, sure, there may be a tad bit of that. But really? No. If it contributed it was not all that much.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 11, 2016 21:27:43 GMT
Political correctness is, at its heart, a good thing. The basic idea of don't say douchey things is good. I'm obnoxiously politically correct. I try not to use gendered insults...yeah I'm that lame.
But we need to understand that the message, as it is currently presented isn't reaching people. Being right is worthless if you can't persuade anyone! We need to change the way the message is delivered. That's not a trivial point because at hte moment the left is driving people away in droves.
Imagine a vacuum cleaner salesman. He's got the best, cheapest, most reliable vacuum cleaners in the world. These things are demonstrably great machines at a great price. So he goes up to a house, knocks on the door and a house wife answers. He says to her "hello maam, I see that your house is absolutely disgusting, with a dirty carpet caked in filth. YOu must be a shitty mother ot let your kids play on that. With my amazing vacuum cleaner you can have clean carpets that don't make you look like a terrible person and..." She slams the door on him. Not to be disuaded he tries the next house, wiht the same pitch and gets the same reaction. And so on for another twenty houses. At the end he says to himself "Wow, these people must love dirty carpets!"
That's the left right now. They push their message in a way that alienates large numbers of people and seem to almost wear that as a badge of honour. When I was young, equality was about raising everyone up to the same level. These days the left talks about destroying white domination and undoing their priviledge. Its some how slipped into bringing the majority down, and people notice this and they reject the message.
Canuovea, you said it makes you feel bad trying to understand Trump supporters, but its ESSENTIAL that we all try to do that! We need to understand these people if we are goign to speak to them and persuade them becuase they aren't going anywhere. The left ignoring them and their concerns is the fuel that feeds Trump's fire. If we don't change that, then there is no hope of progress.
As to the idea that poor whites should be condemned for voting for a candidate that doesn't help other people, I can explain the problem with that logic pretty easily. The poor whites consider themselves a marginalised group, so to realise why the logic doesnt' work. You want them to vote for candidates who promise to help other minorities, but consistantly ignore nad fuck them over, rather than take a chance on a candidate that doesn't give a shit about other minorities but promises to help them>
Would you say that to black people? They keep voting democrat in large numbers, even though democrats consistantly fuck over the poor white people. should they be ashamed?
Expecting people to vote agaisnt themselves to help another group is a ridiculous idea, its not going to happen.
Now you might says "but black people have real problems, those poor white people dont have it so bad." but thats just your point of view. THEY think they have it really bad, and if you aren't in their shows its pretty arrogant to dismiss that.
As for tlakng about who the KKK endorses...yeah that great political power house of the KKK. Them and the neo nazis are such a huge demogrphics I am sure they swayed the entire election. The KKK and the racists always vote republican, but that doesn't mean the republican party is a racist group. Unless we are saying that any vote for a republican is supporting a hate group. Trump did condemn them (though he took his time because he hates to criticise his supporters...probably because they are an extension of his efforts so his ego won't allow it).
The levels of hate are so toxic and so dangerous now, and its coming from both sides. Look at the way you guys talk about Trump supporters. Look I am not trying to act superior here. I've done these things. I've scoffed and looked down on these people. This isn't me bragging, this isn't me gloating, this is me being afraid that we are all losing our way and we need to pull back from the edge. I need to change the way I think as much as anyone else, I'm not better than anyone, certainly not anyone here. We need to realise (and that includes me) that we aren't better than other people. We are all just coming from a different place.
If the left won't change, if they wont learn the tough lessons of this defeat then i don't see a way forward. If we just dismiss the other side as racists and "deplorables" as Hillary did, then we will never heal anything, we will just be driving them further away. I've beeen afraid that the left was digging its own grave for a while, and now we've seen the results. To keep doign the same thing and expecting different results is sometimes called the definition of insanity. There needs to be another way.
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 11, 2016 22:06:38 GMT
Oh I know why they voted for Trump. I get that. I even have some sympathy for them (really). But the left could have been saying anything they wanted about how evil white people were, but if they were actually doing something to help these people they would have been elected. This wasn't about Social Justice in any way. This was about perceived practical realities on the ground.
What bothers me is what they have endorsed in their "fuck it, I'm suffering" kneejerk reaction.
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Post by demonnachos on Nov 12, 2016 3:36:27 GMT
Trump won because of Hilary's corruption, it really is that simple. It wasn't the FBI investigations or WikiLeaks dump showing the population she was corrupt to the core that did it, but she was just so damn corrupt that her media puppets convinced people they didn't need to vote. The ENDLESS bashing of Trump pushed many to support him (Crying wolf over and over about things most people honestly don't care about just turns people against you), and all the media did was tell you what you should vote AGAINST Trump while providing no reason to to vote FOR her. The media always going out of its way to say Clinton has this (One story about bumper stickers ended with the anchor asking if the one with the most bumper stickers always wins, the guy said "always" and they made sure to point out Clinton has more bumper stickers) convinced so many people they didn't need to bother voting that the Democrat voter turnout was just horrible.
Her corruption was so great it killed her, not through her countless scandals but because she drove that nail too deep. It reminds me of the Vin Diesel movie "XXX" in a way. There was a sniper character who always smoked, and Vin quipped "That cigarette's going to kill you one day." Later Vin shot a heat-seeking missile which tracked the heat of the sniper's cigarette and blew him up, to which Vin quipped, "I told him that cigarette was going to kill him." We all knew Hilary's corruption would be her demise, but we couldn't have imagined it would be in this manner.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 12, 2016 19:52:43 GMT
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 13, 2016 9:01:50 GMT
And I'd have done the same in their position. It makes the Republicans look absolutely insane, which is good political manipulation. It did certainly backfire spectacularly though, but they couldn't have known that.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 13, 2016 16:23:04 GMT
I would not have meddled in the other sides primary or tried to use the media to manipulate events, rather than reporting in a fair, unbalanced way.
They decided to play dirty, and they paid the price.
They made this situation and have no one to blame but themselves.
They directly and deliberately used underhanded methods to aid Trump, so they are in no position to cry fouls now that it has bitten them in the ass.
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 13, 2016 19:32:19 GMT
Making the other side look like idiots and/or horrible people has always been part of political strategy in democracy. They didn't do anything different.
What is so depressing is that the Republican party fell for it so badly. The one exception, and therefore the one I have particular respect for, is Kasich.
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Post by demonnachos on Nov 14, 2016 0:57:32 GMT
What is depressing is that the media won't show the full extent of Trump's win. This shit wasn't even close. When I have to go to clickbaity sites like this in order to see the real results, there is a problem: www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/11/trumps-landslide-by-the-numbers-he-crushed-hillary/Trump didn't just get 279 EC votes, he got 306 meaning Hilary gave the Dems their WORST EC performance in a very long time. He won 31 states and 57% of the EC votes while only losing the popular vote by about 500,000ish (now that Michigan finally got its numbers in), but the fact that the only areas Hilary won are those with big cities a disparity in the popular vote isn't surprising. It wasn't even close. If Clinton didn't dip her hand so far into the corruption cookie jar that she fell in, she might have won. She probably could have beat Trump if she ran a regular campaign rather than relying so heavily on her corrupt puppet media. She fucked up, and if the Dems try to run her again in 4 years (assuming she avoids jail and further health problems) I can only see her doing even worse.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 18, 2016 21:06:16 GMT
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 18, 2016 21:40:35 GMT
Glad to read that, it makes everything okay! But more seriously, my problem with Trump has less to do with him feeding on certain elements of society. He IS a bigot, and not just in terms of how he used popular sentiment against Mexicans and Muslims (and yes, he did, on both counts), but that is not the main concern for me. I do think that the idea that things won't get worse for those groups is pretty off the mark though, even if not because of Trump directly. He has to appoint someone to the Supreme Court, after all. And don't forget the kind of people his victory encourages... Also, to the author of that blog's credit, they include this: www.politico.com/story/2016/11/latino-groups-exit-polls-donald-trump-231268Which shows that may not be so true about increasing Latino support.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 19, 2016 0:20:15 GMT
The guy who wrote that is super liberal. He puts trigger warnings on his articles for goodness sake! Though he is critical of a lot of things with feminism and SJW type stuff. He's also pretty logical about what he talks about and has some interesting insights. He knows abotu psychology and statistics, and uses them to great effect. And, as you noticed, hes open to the idea that hes wrong and openly posts things that disagree with him.
I think his stuff is worth reading just to get a different take on things. He's got some interesting ways of looking at stuff. Even if you don't agree, it gives you something to think about.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 19, 2016 2:01:05 GMT
I should clarify I wasn't posting that as necessarily correct, more as an interesting perspective to discuss.
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 19, 2016 7:01:19 GMT
Of course. Though I don't particularly think he is totally wrong.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 21, 2016 15:14:56 GMT
This is harsh, but worth hearing.
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