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Post by Canuovea on Nov 22, 2016 11:45:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 22:04:45 GMT
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 22, 2016 22:19:03 GMT
Oh yeah, that's pretty spot on, actually. Or seems to be. Of course, it also leads to the potential danger of becoming just like Trump.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 22, 2016 22:53:54 GMT
Racist are, I'm sure, making hay while hte sun shines and dancing a jig, but tryign to chalk the whole election up to racism is pretty much throwing in the towel.
That would imply the last 8 years have some how made racism worse (considering how mcuh of the social justice movement happened in the last 8 years that would mean their movement backfired horribly!) I really don't think thats what's happening. People are rejecting something, but its not so simply as them embracing racism.
If I'm wrong, then the population of America are just becoming more nad more racist and attempts to stop this have actually made them EVEN MORE racist and so society is fucked.
So I kinda hope I'm right!
The left has lost track of things like persuading people and trying to convince them. Its all about lecturing and telling people off. People don't respond well to this.
Messages like "You are priviledged and you need to accept that" shockingly dont sell well. Even if you think that the statement is true, that doesn't make it a good pitch! "You will die one day and in a few decades your memory will be all but almostly entirely lost to history." is also generally true for most people....probably not what you want to base your political campaign on though.
People don't want to scalded or told why they are wrong and naturally rebel against that.
The left has become (fairly or not) associated with silencing, safe spaces, shaming and generally trying to shut up the people they dont agree with. Theres an imge problem there that needs to be confronted. You can do "no its fine, our messages is great, deep down everyone agrees with us" and then keep making flopped ghost buster films and losing to guys like Trump. The message isn't working and needs to be changed. In politics tt doesn't matter how right your principles are if you can't get people on board with it.
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 23, 2016 6:17:30 GMT
I dunno Hark, I'm not sure the message is the problem here. Well, not exactly, not the whole Social Justice stuff anyway. If the statistics posted are correct, the reason Trump won is more because the people who voted Obama before just didn't come out to support Clinton this time. So why did people vote for Obama? Because he promised change. Thinking about it from a Republican perspective, Obama looks a lot like Trump. He is a populist who got into power by riding a wave of dissatisfaction while promising massive change. Clinton did not promise that change, not really, and most people didn't believe she would deliver on what change she promised. If Bernie Sanders had been the candidate, he would have won, and he'd probably have won the disaffected white vote as well, since those people aren't total idiots and would probably realize that of the two, Sanders is more likely to deliver what he promises than Trump. Speaking of which... www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politics/donald-trump-disavow-groups-new-york-times/index.htmlSeems Trump will say anything. Could be lying, could be telling the truth, who knows?
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 23, 2016 18:08:48 GMT
Im not syaing its the only reason, its one factor amongst many (That's why I started with a list of things.) Its not the only reason, but its part of the overall trend that brought them to the current mess. Obviously this is anecdotal, but I know a lot of people who used to be progressive and have been alienated by the movement (yes, including me.) Though just when you thought this election couldn't get more ridiculous.... Recount time!
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 23, 2016 20:57:36 GMT
Well, that isn't a bad idea, I suppose. Auditing those places isn't a bad idea.
That being said, I doubt it will make a difference.
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Post by Harkovast on Nov 23, 2016 21:23:12 GMT
I think there is a certain irony to democrats, who were laughing at Trump a few weeks back for suggesting the ludicrous idea that the lection might be rigged against him, are now saying the election was rigged against Hillary.
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 23, 2016 21:34:42 GMT
I think in any case where the polls are so one sided and the election turns out so differently to predicted, and Trump has defied plenty of historical precedent, that we should double check the results.
But I don't expect the outcome to be different.
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Post by TempestFennac on Nov 24, 2016 13:15:34 GMT
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Post by Canuovea on Nov 24, 2016 21:00:21 GMT
So this might prove to be the best thing Stein has ever done... if it turns up evidence that there are actual problems.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 2, 2016 21:56:59 GMT
I am calling Bullshit on this recount. There is basically no actual evidence of anything tampering with the vote. There is lots of rumour nad innuendo, but no actual evidence of it. For this to over turn the election would be the most massive over turning of a vote in the history of America.
To give an idea, when Gore and Bush were having recounts, there was a difference of just 1200 votes.
These states have 10 thousand to 27 thousand gaps.
Hillary would need to over turn ALL THREE states to make a difference to the end result.
I think this has less to do with seriously thinking it will change anything and more to do with Jill Stein wanting to put herself in the lime light and get name recognition. She's the hero of the progressive set right now, so if I was on her team I would be telling her to keep doing this. But the idea that it could over turn the election is bonkers.
And even if you think Trump is terrible (and, fair play, he is!) if they over turned it now, it would turn the whole thing into a farce. An outsider wins , then they recoutn and say "nope hte establishment person actually won." The whole system would be turned into a joke. Could we trust the new result? Might other states also be unreliable? Weve already seen Hillary fans getting nuts and rioting because they thought they were going to win....just imagine Trump fans reaction after being told they won then weeks later having it canceled? It would get REALLY scarey.
But, as I said, I cnat see any reason to think this recount will do anything to change the result.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 2, 2016 22:09:42 GMT
To be fair, I don't have my hopes up as well. If Russians were really involved with tampering with the vote, their embassy would be huffing and puffing and accusing everyone of fascism because of the rumours. They aren't exactly good when it comes to concealing their intentions. So if they're not making a move, it's probably because it won't change anything.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 2, 2016 22:15:26 GMT
Yeah thats a thing with this whole "Russians are master manipulators" thing. They are generally pretty obvioyus to outsiders when they do it. In Ukraine, we could all see what they were doing. No one outside of it thought Russia was doing anything but a land grab.
I am not saying the Russians are incompentant. Russia Today is pretty slick and pushes a pro Kremlin view point to the world. But they just arent' the masterminds people sometimes want them to be.
Its like with people who think Bush was behind 9/11 or some other conspiracy where the evil American government is all knowing.
After the debacle Coca Cola had with "New coke" that ended up helping them becuase people hated new coke so wanted old coke back and old coke ended up selling more than ever. When asked if it was a deliberate plan, one of the guys from coke said "We aren't that smart, and we arent that stupid."
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 2, 2016 22:18:27 GMT
I think the recount is a good idea. In situations where the polls were so drastically wrong, and historical precedent was smashed so much, it seems worthwhile to check to see if something fishy is going on.
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