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Post by TempestFennac on Jul 16, 2018 14:33:28 GMT
Apart from overthrowing the Emperor with Luke, were other motivations Vader had discussed in the movies? I can't remember anything else being mentioned. I agree about Dooku though.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 16, 2018 22:14:50 GMT
There are lots of scenes where we learn about Vaders character. When we first see him enter (in the best entrance ever) the storm trooper stops checking an injured guard and stands to attention, so we know Vader is so scary and such an authority that people drop their shit and pay attention to him when he's there. Then he's throwing around the rebels, showing how merciless and rageful he is. And then he talks to the Imeprial officer who is worried about arrest Leia and Vader makes clear he has no respect for the proper channels of government.
In the Imperial council scene we see how he is apart from the other IMperials (standing adn to the side, not at the table) and he talks abotu the power of the force. We learn that he is a relic from an order, more enligthened age that has been replaced with the cruel, uncaring military machine of the Empire.
We learn a lot about Vader as the films go on.
You could discribe a situation and I know how Vader would respond.
With Dooku, I couldn't really tell you what he would do. Something evil I guess?
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 16, 2018 23:46:34 GMT
Dooku had potential for depth. He could have seemed to believe in the Separatist Cause because of some evil within the Republic... but then only later have it revealed that he was secretly totally bad and working with Sheev the whole time. Instead they threw whatever possible uncertaintly about that away when Obi-Wan overheard him chatting about casually murdering Padme.
Darth Vader does have more than one dimension. He has two. 1) Evil Scary Henchman Enforcer for the Empire but... 2) Wants to reunite with his son and take over the Empire. Wait, maybe three, 3) secretly isn't totally evil.
Sheev is pretty straight up one dimensional though. He does more in the prequels perhaps, but in the original series he's pretty much generic robbed evil mage dude who is dictator. I mean, it worked, but he wasn't complicated or interesting. In fact, the EU tried to retcon a bit of this by saying he was actually preparing for the Yuhzang Vong invasion and that while still evil he wasn't totally wrong in what he was doing.
Maul was evil assassin dude.
Kylo Ren, on the other hand, has far more depth than any of these characters. Privileged boy who is obsessed with lineage. Goes to Uncle to try to be all goody goody light side. Uncle tries to kill him, so goes full baddy bad dark side, especially since said dark side plays to his ideas about lineage and being important. He finds a place he seems to be valued, kills daddy to return that value... then blammo, gets treated like a dog and insulted by Dark Side boss guy. Says "fuck this shit, fuck it all, I'm going to do my own thing..." and slices Snokey pokey in halfsy wafsy. Now he's in charge of a massive cult-like fascistish organization that has its hands around the neck of the galaxy. Wow. a villain that actually has development, go figure.
Basically, don't confuse characterization with character depth. Vader is characterized super well but has the depth of a kiddie pool in the original trilogy. To be fair he is more fleshed out by outside sources and media, but not in the films themselves. Certainly not in the first film.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 0:31:48 GMT
Yeah but Kylo switches motivation between movies. In part one he is obsessed with vader and wants to emulate him, which was actually kind of interesting. But in the second one he never mentions this and it doesn't seem to be a factor anymore. He's movtivated by Luke acting like he wanted to murder him (what is it with this family and wanting to murder kids?) and destroys his mask because Snoke starts making fun of it (which is weird cause I thought the mask was a symbol of him turning evil and he's been wearing it for ages. Did snoke always hate that thing and finally got sick of it? Or had he just not got around to mentioning it?) Its not so much development as everything completeley changed without warning. Snoke changes his motivations and personality as well. He went from interested in Rey because shes powerful, calm about set backs and wanting to bring back Kylo to complete his training...to only wanting Rey to tell him where Luke is and incredibly unstable and violent about even minor set backs or disappointments. He now think Rey is just a "girl who had never held a lightsaber before" and only wanted Kylo brought back so he could yell at him for losing the sword fight (I don't know why Snoke was so invested in that particular sword fight, it seems to have really upset him.) He seems to have gone right off the whole training idea. Does he say that killing Rey will complete Kylo's training? I cant remember he might have said that... because that's freaking stupid. Training isn't like earning a merit badge where you do one thing and then get it. And why would killing Rey, whose just some random enemy, complete his training but murdering his own father wouldn't?
And you get to be in charge of the first order if you just stab the leader? Probably should have done that a while ago cause its really freaking easy cause Snoke is dumb as a post.
How the hell did Snoke seduce Kylo anyway? Snoke is a ranting idiot who constantly, CONSTANTLY insults everyone around him. Actually thinking about it, is there any scene in Last Jedi that Snoke is in that he doesn't insult someone? Like if hes not insulting the person hes talking to (and he usually is) hes insulting someone else. The guy talks all kinds of shit about Hux as soon as he leaves the room to Kylo. You would think people would pick up on the fact he hates them all. I know he's evil, but stating your true feelings about everyone aroudn you constantly isn't so much a sign of being evil as a sign of going senile. Why does anyone work for this guy? I mean I guess if you were a brainwashed storm trooper you might (though Fin acts exactly like a normal, well adjusted person so they clearly dont brain wash storm troopers well enough in my view!), but if you are one of the officers or someone like Kylo who didn't start out working for the guy, why would you want to? Snoke seemed like the least persuasive man in the universe. I didn't think he was competent, let alone convincing. He just yells and beats up and belittles everyone. He seems like a terrible leader. Not very supreme at all. Is Snoke meant to be dumb? Is that deliberate?
To be more constructive...I think that the Snoke beration needed an extra scene before hand to justify it. Like we needed to see Kylo fuck something up and Snoke turns on him. It felt like Snoke was kinda reaching for a problem when he wasn't happy with the way Kylo killed his dad (?) and was really bothered that he was injured in a sword fight he went into after being shot. Instead of the yo momma jokes to make Hux look dumb, there hsould have been a scene of Kylo messing something up and letting the resistance escape (not humiliating him like they did Hux, but he gets out witted somehow.) Trying to recontextualise the end of Force Awakens to justify Snoke's crazy yelling was awkward.
Oooor go more subtle and Snoke starts focusing more on Hux as his favourite, or some other element of his forces that he sees as more important, and Kylo realises hes just a tool in Snokes plan, not the main thing. Kind of a "wait, but he said that I was was most important part of his plans before...and now hes saying it to this guy too?" he could over hear a conversation or something, where Snoke talks about Kylo as a foolish boy in a mask. Like Snoke was telling Kylo to his face that hes cool, but behidn his back Snoke laughs at Kylo to get favour from Hux. that would make the mask thing make more sense. Cause here he has made Kylo think he sees Kylo as a bad ass successor to vader, but secretly thinks hes an idiot kid playing dress up. So he's been lying about it and Kylo realises how Snoke sees him. The whole thing of suddenly Snoke reacts totally differently, like hes looking for a reason to get mad nad literally just yells at Kylo that he's shit was really crude. Snoke was bordering on going "and you better not ever betray me, either!" They could have made that relationship a lot more interesting with a bit more cleverness in the writing. At the very least I would have liked to see what made Snoke so persuasive to people, and if he was telling honeyed lies and promising people different things that he never intended to deliver, that would have done that. Like all his underlings think THEY are the faovurite, but Kylo realises they are all being played. Maybe on realising this Kylo could feel like he was tricked into killing his father (since Han told the truth about Snoke using him) and kill Snoke out of vengeance for that.
Or he's mad that Snoke made fun of his hat while yelling at him. That's certainly another option.
I think Kylo could have been interesting. I thought him and Hux had a nice dynamic in part one, trying to compete for the supreme leaders approval and being rivals. I dunno why they discarded that.
I like his Lightsaber! The ting everyone thought they would hate, in context its good and makes sense. He has a weird unwieldly, unstable weapon which fits his personality as a wannabe, who is never quite as bad ass as he wishes he was. Its actually a nice visual metaphor.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 0:35:49 GMT
Maul shouldn't have got chopped in half. Dooku shouldn't be the villain, nor should grevious. Get rid of those two jokers. The bad guy in all three (or at least the first two) should be Maul. Anakin kills Maul who has been his enemy for ages, and that would have a lot of weight.
Maul was a bad ass mother fucker, who get rid of him to bring in a load of boring bad guys to replace him? And then keep changing villain each film. We've got sidious to do the talking, so a scary muscle goon who kicks everyones ass would be cool.
Mauls death was just really meaningless.
If he had killed quigon and got away and then hes back in episode 2, that owuld have been great. Maybe thats part of what makes Anakin start to go bad, he hates Maul so much. Maybe have Maul kill Anakins mother (rather than they leave her in slavery and forget about her.) Put all the hate on him, so when Anakin kills him we cheer, btu then get that sense of dread that Anakin has done something he shouldn't have by embracing his hate.
And yes, I know they've had Maul come back with robot legs but that is so laughable I don't evne want to dignify it by saying why its stupid.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 0:59:15 GMT
Maul was in the post credits of the Solo movie.
So, yeah. They're doing that.
To be fair, Vader in A New Hope was just a random bad guy that did the empire's dirty work. There wasn't much to him in that movie. He was basically Maul if Maul didn't die. Which is probably why Maul was killed in the first movie, it was already done before.
Kylo is the first time we have an antagonist that starts out as something more. There's a lot going on with him. This isn't your typical cold and calculating bad guy with buried anger issues. It's not perfect, but it's something. Really, the biggest harm to his character is Rey. When you have a deeply flawed antagonist facing off against a perfect protagonist that is incapable of losing there's no drama.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 1:01:24 GMT
I don't think Rey is perfect. She'd not have fallen for such a trap if she were.
Also, Maul is a recurring character in the Clone Wars TV show (the 3D one) and the Rebels TV show.
It ends like so for him:
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 1:03:26 GMT
Also, Kylo's character makes sense between the two movies. He did everything he was asked to and was cast aside, this led him to reevaluate his priorities and he decided this whole Vader thing was foolish. Certainly Snoke made that point with the helmet, yes, but he clearly came to realize Snoke was just manipulating him.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 1:06:37 GMT
I don't think Rey is perfect. She'd not have fallen for such a trap if she were.
Of course she would. Her one fatal flaw is that she cares too much, which is the only flaw Mary-Sues are allowed to have. It's the Jesus complex.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 1:08:19 GMT
Maul surviving in the none movie stuff just feels embarrassing to me. Like he comes back and does all this stuff but its all stuff that no one in the films will ever mention and wasn't important enough for anyone to refer to. It feels like goofy fan fic. Like they know it was a mistake that he was killed so now he has to come back over and over. I find the rebels show really lame..but the final Obi Wan vs Maul face off is pretty cool, so props for that Rebels show.
Here is the Maul scene from Solo.
Its about as blatant a bit of fan service as you coudl imagine. The thing is, again, we know nothing he will do will amount to anything. He clearly never bothers Han in a serious way because we've seen that Han and his ship are fine later. To most movie going audiences this was probably fucking confusing, since maul "died" 30 years ago so if you dont know the robot legs thing you will be really confused how come hes here as a hologram. I like that he stand up and turns on his light saber...even though shes not in the same room. does he not know how holograms work? Its not scary if you are on another planet, Maul! Also I think its funny that star wars holograms are blue, but this one has colour just so we can see his light saber and face markings are red. Just in case the audience wasn't sure who this was.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 1:17:08 GMT
You know what's funny?
Nobody seems to understand what it was that Rian did with Snoke.
He very clearly retconned Snoke into a manifestation of the "toxic" Star Wars fans that complained about the first movie so he could kill them on screen.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 1:21:15 GMT
I don't think she's a Mary Sue. No more than certain other characters at least.
Yes, she's good at fighting. She grew up on sandy planet of fend for yourself or die. She does learn force stuff fast, true true, at least in the first film, but hardly unprecedented given how the force apparently works. Her parents were Junkers who flew around on a ship (apparently) so she might have had some early exposure to flying, as well as being able to identify all those different parts and such because, well, she's a scavenger. One thing she does that is a bit confusing is swim, given she grew up on, as before, sand only planet of fend for yourself or die. Her struggle isn't primarily physical at this point, though I'll point out she struggled to defeat a swordsman who was trying not to kill her AND had been shot in the gut by the previously demonstrated powerful bowcaster thing. She needed to embrace the force thingy and not rely on herself to do so after all.
And while you say Naivety is a flaw allowed to Mary Sues, she demonstrates enough of it to get in her way. Not just about saving Kylo and walking into traps (but seriously, not only did Snoke trap her but she thought that Kylo would be all goody goody after he killed Snoke), but also about how the world works. Frankly, Luke is right, what did she expect him to do? Walk in there waving a laser sword and beat the First Order? No. That isn't how things work. She was wrong. She is also held back by her history with her parents, an thing that has been bad for her in episode 7 and come back again in episode 8. They're gone. They're not important to who she is now... but she still clings to that. Sure, she is able to reject Kylo after his attempt to bring her to is side by basically negging her (including about her parents), but that isn't the only thing. She wants to know who her parents are? She literally goes poking around in darkside sinkhole of doom out of shear curiosity... which Luke chews her out for (not entirely without reason either).
Her naivety about how the world actually works is especially ironic given that she, again, grew up on fend for yourself or die planet.
There are worse "Mary Sues" out there.
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Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 1:24:59 GMT
You know what's funny?
Nobody seems to understand what it was that Rian did with Snoke.
He very clearly retconned Snoke into a manifestation of the "toxic" Star Wars fans that complained about the first movie so he could kill them on screen.
What? I don't see it.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 1:29:14 GMT
haha on first reading I thought cnauovea was saying that Rey wasn't a perfectly written character. I thought that seemed odd!
Rey never attempts to do anything and is bad at it...at all. Often she is the best in the galaxy at things on her first attempt. The first time she fires a gun on a space ship she destorys 3 tie fighters with a single shot. That's the most astounding shot asside from the one that blew up the first death star...and evne that only hit one target! I didnt' even know killing more than one thing with a space ship blaster was possible! She is from a desert planet but is a strong swimmer. She blows away tons of storm troopers while fleeing from them despite knowing nothing about guns just a short while before.
Though one I dont mind is the end of force awakens, with the light saber fight. That made sense to me. She was losing at first, despite Kylo being weakened, but then she feels the force and can defeat him. That made sense to me. I think complaints about that are unfair. It was one of the better bits of that film I think.
Its every other fucking thing Rey can do that gets annoying!
She can fix the falcon better than Han. She teaches Luke more about being a jedi than he teaches her (and beats him in a fight.) Leia hugs her rather than Chewie after Han dies and trusts her to go find Luke (even giving this rando girl a tracking device to help .) This is LITERALLY the first time Leia meets Rey. She has never even seen Rey before she goes and hugs her after Hans death.
The way she out does and is praised by the established characters is the most Mary Sueish thing about her, even more than her competence at everything.
The characters should all just start going "where's poochy?" whenever she isn't in a scene.
She falls into the trap with Snoke (because she goes to Snoke...for some reason) but she doesn't just escape but it ends up back firing and killing Snoke! She thinks she cna turn Kylo against Snoke and she does. I guess she doesn't turn Kylo actually good, she just causes him to kill the leader of the enemy faction. Most peole would call that a win, but for our girl Rey its as close to failure as she gets. "I got the bad guys to kill each other, but didn't get them to actually change and join my side...oh the harsh failures I suffer in life!"
Isn't it weird how after her and Kylo are unconscious after the saber blows up she wakes up first nad just runs off? Why not kill Kylo, or tie him up and take him with her or something? At least steal his light saber! hes a lot less dangerous without that thing! Just running off seems really strange. And she some how steals a ship and escapes off camera. Dont' the first order guard their ships? An earth car needs you to have the keys. Do earth cars have better security than military star ships? And then she gets all the way back to Luke planet, gets in the falcon and flies all the way back. I mean I guess I don't know how long travel takes in Star Wars but that seems fucking fast! Its like all this implausible stuff was happening when the camera wasn't on her.
In the first film I gave her a pass because she is with Fin and they have fun chemistry that made me over look it, but when you separate the pair it really brought home how lame she is as a character. She's just the best at everything ever (I guess because force?) and shes not really interesting as a person. I cant even really describe her personality beyond "is good" and "wants to do the right thing." She just a generically good person. No that star wars has super complex characters but they have a bit more to them before. Like I can describe Luke to you in a way that I struggle to do with Rey. She's not really like an actual person. Luke has motivations like "I want to get off this planet nad have adventures." Rey I guess has that parents thing but she never does anything about that, its just a thing she mentions. Its not exactly a motivation in a meaningful way.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 1:32:29 GMT
Okay her being wrong about Luke doesnt make her look bad, it makes him look bad. she wants him to help and hes useless so she has to do it herself. The poitn is that what Luke is saying is wrong cause hes washed up.
Rey is the one being correct and Luke won't listen.
That doesn't show some character flaw in Rey, it shows that she is noble and always right and even the greatest Jedi in the universe needs to learn from her.
Though admitedly she is now the best jedi in the universe as even Yoda (who wanted to LUke to be fully trained before facign vader) thinks Rey knows everything she needs already.
The idea that she seeks out a master to teach her, and bascially ends up schooling him....I dont see how that shows any flaw in Rey.
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