|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 1:35:38 GMT
Also Luke isn't right about facing them with the laser sword. He DOES face down the entire first order with his "laser sword". He was wrong abotu how doing that would be futile. Thats the whole point of the ending, that he does the thing he said he wouldn't do.
Rey was in the right, Luke was talking shit, but in the end he realises she was correct and helps (slightly.)
Amusingly, Rey said hte force was "telling peple what to do and moving rocks"....at the end she needs the force to move rocks to save everyone. She's evne right about that!
Also shes way better at moving rocks than Luke ever was. She moves dozens of huge rocks, Luke took ages of training to just lift one!
So yeah, Shes not naive when shes asking Luke to do stuff. She is correct and he ends up doing what she wants because she is right.
Him being a loser that wont help isn't a fault in Rey.
|
|
|
Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 1:47:33 GMT
"Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber."
Wow, I only heard that like 1,000 times on the internet. There's some more shit he says that matches but I'm too lazy to look it up.
Also, the failures of Rey aren't her failures, they are people failing her. That's a key difference. Rey never fails, or at least not that we've seen. Or if she does fail she immediately succeeds right afterward.
"You will release my bonds"
"I'll tighten your bonds"
"You will release my bonds"
"Okay."
And of all people, Can, you should know there is a huge difference between fighting with a stick and fighting with a sword. Just because she had to fight to survive in a harsh environment doesn't mean she's a skilled fighter, just that she's a survivor. Her parents left her when she was around 5 years old, I'm not sure how much pilot training she got in that time. How many 5 year olds are skilled drivers because their parents drive them around in cars? Most of them are lucky if they understand how to use the car seat.
|
|
|
Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 1:49:36 GMT
I didn't say she was a perfectly written character, did I? I said she wasn't a Mary Sue.
She can't "feel" the Force when Luke tells her to try. She is absolutely helpless before Snoke.
And no, Luke is right, Rey is wrong, and Luke ends up saving the day in the end, but not by fighting. I mean, that might just be the most Jedi thing ever.
Oh oh! She also attacks Luke out of anger. Very Mary Sueish. And yes, she wins the fight, because she HAS A LIGHTSABER and he has a stick. Also Luke has somewhat cut himself off from the Force at that point in the movie, so he isn't going to use it to win.
I don't think you watched the same movies I did. I don't get it.
This is ridiculous. Luke actually has an arc rather than showing up as some complete character. Han is in a similar situation as Luke in that we've not actually seen him in that role. Its been thirty years, shit has happened. Characters are not the same as you thought you knew from the end of the original trilogy and if they were? It would be a bad movie. They would go nowhere. The new characters have an arc for the most part too. Finn -> Finn and Rey -> Finn and the Rebellion. Poe -> stupid hotshot -> actually not being an idiot. Rey with parent issues/abandonment issues/Naive as fuck -> Accepting loss and forciness (which if you notice she rejects early in episode 7) -> accepting parents not important (or at least not distracting her anymore) -> realizing that world isn't black and white (or at least facing that fact). Hell, even Leia passes the torch.
I guess Rose has to cope with her dead sister. A sister Poe's hot headedness got killed on a gamble. But she's also Rose, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of her.
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 1:55:14 GMT
Rey should be more feral. Shes all well spoken and polite, but shes grown up as a desert scavenger, fighting with sticks. I am fine that shes kind and doesnt want to sell a droid for scrap etc, but she should be more rough around the edges. Like shes always cramming any food she cna get in her mouth and stuffing it in her pockets for later, becuase shes so used to struggling to have enough to live.
Maybe that could contrast with the uptight, regimented Finn (cause hes a storm trooper). He's been raised to be constantly seriously and professional, while she is kinda wild and hasn't developed normal social skills.
It feels a bit like she had a really nice upbringing at some point during her life on that desert planet.
Stuff like she knows who Han Solo is. I mean I guess she COULD have heard of that, but you would think she would be the ignornat one, who has no education and needs things explaining to her. Maybe Fin pulls her to oneside and says "we need to get out of here! han Solo is one of the worst war criminals in the galaxy! He murdered prisoners in the battle of endor!" So she doesnt know things and Fin only knows the distorted First order version of things where good is evil and evil is good. Then they could both kind of learn stuf and learn from each other.
Maybe Fin teaches her how to use a blaster (cause thats basically one of the few things his education would involve asside from how freaking great the Empire was.)
|
|
|
Post by Canuovea on Jul 17, 2018 2:07:30 GMT
Luke doesn't face down the whole First Order with a laser sword. The entire point is that he doesn't do that. He doesn't even make an attack. There is literally no lightsaber to lightsaber blade contact in the entire film apparently. I can't really remember, but I've heard that come up as a point of criticism. He doesn't kill anyone with his laser sword, which you know is what he meant when he bitched Rey out. As I said, what he does is probably the most Jedi thing in the entire fucking series, and to misinterpret that so clearly... I don't even know what to say to that.
I just... okay. I'm done with this. I can't take your opinions on movies seriously anymore. Good for you, you have them, but its like whaaaargarble to me. I'm sure mine sound the same to you, but this just comes across as totally ridiculous.
I'll say something else.
I think Star Wars "fans" who behave like some have been doing are kinda fucking stupid. If you want to have good stories, you want people to actually work on your movies. But if you're going to bitch out everyone who makes a movie (especially a good movie, because yes, Last Jedi seems to be one, at least the critics think so... so I'm not alone) and treat them like shit then nobody who actually is capable will want to make more. You know what that means? That means you are going to get hacks and studios actually making your movies. Just you watch, next thing you know they'll hire the guy who wrote Batman vs Superman and The Justice League to write Episode Nine and pump out a bunch more shit.
OH.
Oh no.
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 2:15:03 GMT
Canuovea he says "do you expect me to face down the entire first order with my laser sword" or something to that effect. and then later on...he faces down the entire first order.
He didnt try to teach her some thing about how fighting was not the answer. He was saying that him going out and facing them was ridiculous...and then he went out and faced them.
He did the thing he scoffed at earlier (though he did it as a hologram.)
What you are saying only makes sense if he tried to impart some "fighting isn't the answer" message, which he never does. His message is "I'm not a hero, there's nothing I can do" and then later it turns out he was wrong and he can help. So Rey is correct and Luke is the one that is wrong and needs to learn something. He learns something from her, she learns nothing from him.
I guess she attacked Luke out of anger, thats true, but the movie doesnt treat that as bad (obi wan attack Maul in anger nad seemed to get a free pass too...I always hated that.) After she beats Luke he confesses that he considered murdering Kylo and pulled out his saber to do it but then didnt' go through with it. She stands over him while he's down in the mud at her feet, confessing what a loser he is. The movie does do anything with her attackign in anger being bad or a problem. The scene vindicates her and shows Luke to be in the wrong. Luke doesnt say anything abotu "you are using anger! That's the dark side!" It didn't seem cause any problem at all.
And ignoring Luke to go in the magic cave....also caused no problems. Luke said it was bad, she went there and nothing bad happened. Luke gives terrible advice! Ignoring him never has a bad consequence.
Regarding characters changing over time...Han is literally exactly like he was 30 years ago. I mean hes gone back to smuggling and pretty much wearing the same clothes, flyign around in the same ship. He's almost been retconned.
The arcs you describe are in places a bit shakey. Rey doesnt have an arc about her parents. Her opinions of her parents aren't really important until Kylo brings it up. If she had gone to Luke to ask about her parents, that would have made it more of an arc, like thats what she is looking for the whole time. I mean she learned something, but its not really an arc. It didn't change her as a character. It didn't follow on from anything she was doing ealier. I guess her arc might be realising that she doesn't need luke and should just do it all herself.
And I dont really get what you mean about Fin. You are just describing him moving around to different people. That's not an arc. Thats like syaing "vader on star destroyer, Vader talking to tarkin, Vader in death star battle" I mean yeah he moves to new scenes that follow on, but its not a character arc.
Though I do agree Luke had an arc in Last Jedi. He did learn to stop being such a washed up hobo and had a final moment where he looked up, and thought of the twin suns of his home world...implying he wished he had stayed home the whole time, I guess? Its kinda bleak that he originally desperately wanted off his home planet, now he wishes he was back there, like he regrets it all.
Rey is helpless before SNoke, but at the end of the scene its Snoke that is humiliated and destroyed, and Rey is completely fine. having poeple who oppose you get utterly destroyed and humiliated is a pretty strong Mary Sue trait. Snoke briefly has the advantage, but is very quickly dispatched. There is no lasting win over Rey or permanent consequence to what hes doing. Even Rey cant' win IMMEDIATELY in every scene. You have to at least have the bad guys talk a bit before they get stomped.
And what is your problem with Rose Tico, Canu? Didn't you read my rap? Are you trying to destroy what you hate instead of saving what you love or something?
|
|
|
Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 2:18:13 GMT
And 15 seconds later she can. Not real failure. That was more for lols anyway and it had no influence on her character as a real failure would.
And Snoke is the misogynist fans. She's being abused in a way that she can't retaliate, like on the internet. Again, this isn't going to have any influence on her character. She doesn't have a crisis of faith because she's not strong enough. Hell, this should be a big deal for her. Something she can't beat? That never happened before. But the whole scene is just to kill the "true enemy".
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 2:24:46 GMT
To me, the franchise is already completely off the rails, so the idea of getting a worse director isn't really a worry. I mean I would rather they got someone good, but if I don't like what they already did, I can't really be concerned that they will get a new guy who does different things wrong. From my evil sith point of view, this would be like someone telling me "if you dont stop bashing this michael bay film, the next one will have a WORSE director". My response is more on the lines of "is that possible?" I can't see anyway I will go see episode 9. I just cant imagine anything that would interest me at this point...unless it was comedically bad. For me last jedi does for star wars what into darkness does for trek.
You are allowed to like it, Can. Its not a judgement on you or anything. I managed to talk everyone down from having you ring a bell and chant "unclean!" when you are out in public. To me you are saying defences of it that don't seem to tally up with what I saw in the movie, but art is subjective so if you like it then that's a good thing. You can watch it and enjoy it and my opinions are of no consequence to that.
It must seem odd to have so many people saying a movie that you enjoyed and thought made perfect sense was incomprehensible nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 2:29:42 GMT
Wordweaver your derranged Snoke theories aside... I think there is a key point there that when she does seem to fail or be bad at something its only ever very brief nad immedaitely corrected. Like she doesnt know how to use a gun...but two shots later shes a dead eye sniper. Snoke throws her around...but then gets killed off a minute later.
Even the small set backs she faces are quickly over come.
I would have liked if Snoke had trained Kylo and Kylo got some bad ass armour and stuff and hen he fights Rey again and is more powerful than her. Hes not injured this time and is fully trained and shes is over confident cause she won before and gets a shock. That would build thing up for the third film. Kylo is probably the most interesting character...but hes not super threatening.
Which leads me on to another video...
Here is a video that raises an interesting point about the way the First Order used in the films....
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 2:34:06 GMT
Its definitely true that a person screaming makes them seem weak, like they are losing control of the situation. I'll use Wierd Britannia, my rpg as an example. Judgement is Stoic and stern and quite scary. I don't think he has ever raised his voice in the game. Purity makes weird jokes and strange references and is very scary. Silver screams about how important she is and seems like the biggest loser ever.
You gotta keep a measured tone to seem bad ass.
I actually liked Hux doing his crazy screaming speech in part 1. It made him seem like he ws a kind of wannabe. Like he's young and doesn't really believe hes up the task and is over compensating. The ruined it in part 2 by taking this too far and making him a walking punchline. When he was competent but not as good as he tried to act (like Kylo) it was more interesting.
|
|
|
Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 4:14:24 GMT
Wordweaver your derranged Snoke theories aside... That's kinda what this thread is for.
I mean, I spent all that time on my Force theory, that's just another one.
I think it's fairly solid since the entire movie is a troll by Rian.
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 11:31:33 GMT
I must admit...the "Rian was trolling" theory does kinda fascinate me. I don't think its likely...but I can't complete disregard it.
I did realise that I couldn't make Last Jedi worse without making it feel like a deliberate piss take.
The sense that Rian doesnt like Star Wars, views it as dumb and wants to reinvent it into something that is (in his view) better does seep through. As one review pointed out- Luke talking with contempt for his "laser sword", sounds less like a star wars character and more like something a film critic who hates star wars would say.
I saw a review that said there was a certain "dark purity to Last Jedis perversions" which I've sort of come around to.
Like its ruining everything so absolutely and so fearlessly that its actually impressive. It's so wrong as to be kind of amazing. I've gone from being angry with it to sort of fascinated by it. As a complete failure on every level...its kinda perfect.
My wife Julie remembers the bit where I started laughing hysterically in the theatre because I couldn't take any more of the nonsense being shown on the screen. (She also thought it was utter nonsense, in case you wondered. My youngest daugther enjoyed it becuase she is called Rose and there was a character with her name on screen. So full marks for that Rian.)
I think part 9 (now JJ is back and the franchise has started losing money) will be super safe, by the numbers and follow the plot points of previous movies etc. I think it will be lame, but in more of a bland, pointless kind of way, rather than a horrendous way. There wont be any reason to see it, basically. If we are going to ruin it, lets not half ass it!)
Last Jedi is a film there is definitely reason to see, just so you can comprehend the mess.
A friend of mine only just saw it and (despite me telling him how bad it is loads) said he couldn't believe how bad it was. he was mainly looking at it in terms of editing, scene composition and that kinda thing...and he thought it was disastrous. That made me feel a bit vindicated! I thought I'd over hyped it!
|
|
|
Post by Harkovast on Jul 17, 2018 11:47:26 GMT
I just thought...Luke flat out says that he has only seen raw strength like Rey once before. So rey is literally the most powerful force user Luke has ever met except Kylo, who is equal to her.
Obi Wan? Yoda? The Emperor? Pfft move asside losers!
though they said in the first film Kylo feared he would never be as powerful as Vader...though he is already stronger. So that doesn't seem to follow on.
Honestly I dont like when people start talking about the Force in terms of "power" levels, like its Dragon ball z. The whole thing Yoda taught us was that its not about that.
Force not make one great!
Its about understanding and spirituality, not whose level is over 9000. Rey being so powerful with no training turns it into just a super power. She has no insight or spirituality, she can just do amazing stuff because she is awesome.
I love this scene so much...
The power of the force isn't like levelling up in DnD! Luke needs to understand things and unlearn the way he sees the galaxy. He needs to believe in it to do it! Yoda never even teaches him about light saber fighting, cause that's not what the force is. Yoda even tells him he wont need his weapon when he sends him into the cave. Yoda views light sabers like the Emperor does...they aren't important.
Note that Luke is the one in the wrong in that scene, he needs Yoda to teach him cause he doesn't get it. If anything it seems like Luke is a poor student at first, because what Yoda wants to teach him is incredibly difficult. Empire Strikes back has Luke suffering a lot of set backs.
Rey doesn't need anybody to tell her anything. She is the greatest person at the force when Luke meets her and it immediately terrifies him cause shes just so damn good at it all.
|
|
|
Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 17, 2018 23:21:33 GMT
Like its ruining everything so absolutely and so fearlessly that its actually impressive. It's so wrong as to be kind of amazing. I've gone from being angry with it to sort of fascinated by it. As a complete failure on every level...its kinda perfect.
At this point I guess the only option is to break out the marshmallows and make s'mores over the pyre. Since they refuse to make anything good we may as well be dazzled by how fantastically they can fail.
Makes the prequels seem quaint and adorable.
|
|
|
Post by wordweaver3 on Jul 18, 2018 5:39:13 GMT
Here's a funny thing to think about.
During the casino planet debacle after Finn and Rose escape the jail and find themselves in the horsedog stalls they come across the slave children. Just as one of the children is about to hit the alarm Rose shows her secret decoder ring to him that proves she's with the resistance. The same resistance that was funded by the republic that exactly two days ago was in charge and was perfectly fine with the slave industry. Why would a random slave have any sympathy for the cause of the resistance? It's not like the First Order came in and forcibly installed slavery yesterday, as Rose ham fistedly told us earlier that all that evil has been going on for a while.
Having the slaves react negatively toward Rose and Finn might have gone a long way toward outlining that shoehorned good guy/bad guy point Captain Stutter was making later.
And at the end of the movie after the resistance showed up and rescued their pet dogs while leaving the children in squalor, we see the slaves recounting Luke's cowardly courageous facing down of the First Order and saving the resistance, as if they would know about it or even care. Then we see a force sensitive child raise his mop handle like a giant hard-on.
|
|