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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2015 3:14:55 GMT
Don't discount L. Frank Baum for his influence on fantasy and strong female characters. Lewis Carroll is also important in both respects.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2015 15:00:58 GMT
That is true. The Oz series was essentially early (and better) Narnia. Carroll somewhat too, and both did use female characters (probably better than Tolkien in many ways).
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2015 20:02:06 GMT
Carroll and Baum were notable not only for lead female characters, but also for not making their young lead a princess, which was standard fare in children's stories at the time. Still is to an extent. "Princess" comes with it some margin of importance and making it unnecessary to expand the character beyond that. It also delegates the character as an object of desire instead of simply someone in a story.
I always thought that Baum drew a lot of his inspiration from Carroll and set forth to make a Through the Looking Glass type story. Only Baum wanted to make something more coherent with more clear cut morals.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2015 20:46:36 GMT
There is also the idea that there is an abdication of responsibility by having your character be a Princess. Disney has been criticized for that whole "princess" thing. Only in Frozen do we actually see a Princess accept the mantle of ruler with the authority and responsibility that comes with it. That is the most recent movie too.
And while Baum may have been better...
Dorothy was made a Princess by Ozma of Oz, eventually anyway. Ozma is known as the "Lovely Girl Queen" but, more often, is just called "Princess".
And my girlfriend is writing an essay on this subject now because I told her that we are doing this...
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2015 21:33:14 GMT
One could also argue that Oz has a great deal of sci-fi elements to it. Baum foresaw televisions, robots, holographs, and cell phones.
We're talking good stories. I'm comparing something that is crap (The Princess and the Goblin) to something good (The Wonderful Wizard of Oz). What's more I'm talking about characters who begin the story as nobility having low character value because the author uses their nobility as a character trait. Dorothy may have become nobility, but it wasn't what defines her. The same is true with Alice. Wendy may have become queen if Peter had been inclined to do so.
Also, it's not entirely unlikely that turn of the century works were influenced by socialist concepts such as monarchy being unpalatable, thus making a princess more of a character flaw than anything else.
Disney movies are a good example of what I'm talking about. Nobility as a character trait without any real weight to it is pretty much standard fare.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2015 23:01:25 GMT
Yeah, I can see some of that Sci-Fi stuff there too... but you can see that in Tolkien as well to some extent.
Morgoth genetically engineers dragons, for reals.
But all of that stuff is true... yet I've a rant to post here... the girlfriend has taken great offense.
She's not done either...
And don't ask me to tell her she's having a nostalgia fueled emotional response. I value my life.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2015 23:16:18 GMT
A good children's book should still be endearing to adult audiences. If you "outgrow" it, it wasn't that good to begin with.
An' why am I in an argument with your girlfriend? I'm not gonna win this, and you're gonna get stuck sleeping on the couch.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2015 23:20:23 GMT
I made the mistake of mentioning it...
Besides, its a long distance relationship anyway. I don't have to sleep on the couch.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 21, 2015 23:23:35 GMT
Don't tempt fate, I'm sure she could find a way.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2015 23:30:45 GMT
If anyone could ignite a mattress from great distance with just the power of her rage it would be her... so true, good point Renard.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2015 0:02:33 GMT
I figured we were about done with this movie anyway and we should movie on to Vast's terrible suggestion. We're pretty far off subject as it is.
If yer GF wants to make a Book Night at the Vast House thread she's welcome to.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 22, 2015 0:05:20 GMT
At this point, she'll probably avoid the forum viciously while also ranting at me viciously for the next day or so.
Anyway, if we can find a link to the non-shitty Thief and the Cobbler which works for us American Continent people, sure...
Then again, I did like the other one, which I know is supposed to be funny. The Thief and Zig Zag were both hilarious.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2015 0:07:12 GMT
Did he put up the shitty one or the re-cobbled one?
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2015 0:08:57 GMT
Cuz I kinda think this might be it.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2015 0:10:18 GMT
Holy long ass extended intro!
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