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Post by Harkovast on Jul 14, 2018 12:55:10 GMT
I think its hurting the left/progressive side more at the minute because their whole shtick of late is that they are the moral ones. They set themselves up as the ones stopping the racism and hateful ways of the right. Like Michelle said "they go low, we go high". So when they get caught out lying or being scummy or being hypocrites it hurts them more.
It's the reason every time Trump lied nothing seemed to happen, but when Hillary lied the dirt seemed to stick more. Or Trump shagging a porn star while married and paying her hush money. It didn't really hurt him because it was exactly what everyone EXPECTED him to be doing. He's a sleazy businessman, I would have been shocked if he wasn't doing that. Its the difference from hearing the bank manager hada gay affair and hearing the right wing, 'gays go to hell preacher had a gay affair. Both are a scandal, but the one who set himself up as the moral authority doing it seems a hundred times worse and far more interesting to gossip about.
It's that whole setting expectations thing. George Dubya won a debate with Al Gore because expectations of him were so low (cause his opponents had painted him as a drooling moron) that even though he was a bit weaker than Gore, he was light years ahead of what people expected so he looked great.
Its some kind of wierd irony that you can lose by making everyone think bad things about your opponent, because you set the expectation too low. If you get everyone to accept that your opponent is a moron and a sleaze and then it turns out one time they are right and you are wrong...you are shafted.
Gaming media publications pushing a dishonest narrative does them a lot of harm because they paint themselves as the pillars of morality and respectable journalism. Compared to some angry youtuber who rants about SJW bullshit in ma video gamez, we have an expectation that the professional journalist will be of a higher standard (an expectation they encourage.) When angry youtuber is pushing a narrative or being bias it doesn't hurt him because we expect it from him, there isn't really a pretence that you are getting the unbiased truth. He's just some guy trolling or being a douche. But the mainstream gaming media sets itself up as an authority, so when they seem biased or manipulative it hugely undermines their authority.
It also leads to a certain arrogance. When you are sure you are the moral one and the smart one, you start thinking everything you do is okay, just by virtue of you doing it. That's what we see with this guild war thing. Their conviction that their ideas and their narrative is always right over rode everything else and they turned something that should have been minor (weird dev gets fired for saying stupid activist shit to random people) into a far bigger scandal (media lies to defend crazy dev!)
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Post by StyxD on Jul 15, 2018 19:18:28 GMT
I think your postulates are very interesting, but there's one thing not quite…
I mean, the left present themselves as moral, but it's not like the voters for the right are… explicitly immoral?
Would it really go like "oh no, Clinton is not quite as moral as she presented herself to be… better go vote for the sleazy guy, I love sleaze!" Same with smart/stupid, etc.
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Post by Harkovast on Jul 15, 2018 19:50:25 GMT
Fair point... its not so much moral, thats the wrong way to say it (everyone thinks they are the moral side.)
its more the idea of being the moral authority.
In the past the moral authoritarians were on the right. "Your video game is too violent, your movie has too much sex, this tv show is mocking christian beliefs!"
The sense was that they were the ones preaching a moral view to others.
Some how, and don't ask me how, the script has flipped, and now the left seem like the moral authoritarians.
"Your video game is too sexist, your movie is too racist, this tv show doesnt include enough diversity."
Its not just hte sense of being right, but its the sense of having cornered the market on what is acceptable and feeling sure enough to start trying to force people to go along with those morals.
Once you set yourself up in judgement of others you have to keep your house in order to avoid seeming like a hypocrite.
Using the Trump election (which is the go to, clear as day example for this kind of thing) Trump did make moral judgements about Hillary, but Hillary did this way more at Trump adn his supporters (not syaing she was right or wrong, just observing what happened...I hate that I have to always add shit like that so there isn't an argument about whether or not I love Trump.)
Its the sense of making your moral superiority central to what you are doing that causes the problem. When you really hammer that "the other guy is so immoral and I am so much more moral" then the ud sticks more.
It may not send your poeple to the other side (the die hards will stay with you regardless, due mainly to tribalism) but it may reduce their enthusiasm and make them lose heart. People on the fence meanwhile will always be repelled by a hypocrite. I mena who doesnt hate a hypocrite? Imagine a bad guy who does something evil...like he runs an evil cult where everyone works as slaves...but then we find out hes acutally living in luxury off the others hard work in secret! Its like the cult was bad...btu the fact he is doing the opposite of what the cult the preaches makes him seem SUPER evil.
If a group gets seen as hypocrites, thats worse then just being the bad thing in the first place. It adds that extra level of douche bag.
So if you have two candidates and one is a liar, but the other is a lair who pretended to be super honest and got caught out...the second one annoys us more. Even though their lies might be lesser than the known liar.
Again, no one thinks their side is the immoral one. But there is a difference between thinking you are right (which we all do...we dont hold beliefs we know to be wrong!) and being so confident that you are right that you feel your views should be dictated on others.
That's the rough, rambling explanation of how I see things, anyway.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2019 5:04:33 GMT
Wow. That's just... I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 21, 2019 8:09:03 GMT
It's not a bug in Catholic education, it's a feature.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2019 19:59:38 GMT
Well, that's embarrassing.
They weren't even there for the same event so I'm not sure what's going on here or why there are issues between them.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 21, 2019 20:25:50 GMT
Probably racism, I'd imagine.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 21, 2019 21:13:34 GMT
Sure but...
"We believe in the sanctity of all human life, even unborn life... Wait, are those injuns over there? Let's go make fun of them and their weird, unholy culture."
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Post by StyxD on Jan 21, 2019 22:16:55 GMT
Presumably, they campaign implicitly only for white, natural American-conceived fetuses?
Pro-lifers are an intriguing movement, worldwide. So concerned with innocent life, but they seem to seethe with hatred towards pretty much everyone.
I mean, in Europe where I live, those are the people who cheer when African immigrants, many of them children, drown when trying to cross the Mediterranean.
It's a confusing situation.
Although among them are white supremacists who only care about banning abortions because they need to force white women to have more children. And there are also those who seem to mostly want women to get punished for having sex. But I don't think this accounts for all of them… right?
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 21, 2019 23:27:22 GMT
The full video on this one radically changes the context. For example, a lot of mainstream coverage leaves out the group of Black Hebrew acitvists yelling racist chants at people. If you didn't look into it, you probably wouldn't even know those guys were involved. When people first started saying it was "black muslims" (actually a sort of black jewish cult group) that were causing trouble, a lot of people scoffed because they didn't think any such people were involved, since media coverage largely left them out.
A lot of coverage also gives the impression the kids approached the native American guy, when actually he went up to them and started getting in their faces with his drum. There is footage of him walking up to them and of him getting in the face of the student that is smiling at him. He's the one instigating it. He claimed to be trying to get past them, but you can also clearly see he isn't doing this.
He claimed they chanted "build the wall" at him, but in none of the footage that was recorded can you hear this (and there is about 2 hours of footage.) You CAN hear one of the native Americans telling the catholic kids they should go back to Europe because this isn't their land.
Lots of people who posted outraged tweets about this (including a guy from CNN saying he wanted to punch one of these kids in the face) have started deleting their initial reactions as the facts have come out.
Even the Guardian has put out an article admitting there was more to this story than they first thought.
The internet loves out rage, but its best to reserve judgement.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 21, 2019 23:32:31 GMT
Here is a video by a Trump hating Atheist that explains why this story isn't on the level.
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Bullc**p
Jan 21, 2019 23:58:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by Horsie on Jan 21, 2019 23:58:49 GMT
Life begins at conception, but doesn't matter after birth .
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2019 0:40:06 GMT
Knew there had to be more to it.
God, I hate the news now.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 0:45:34 GMT
The "Black Hebrew" cultists behave deplorably, but they don't really change the situation much, except by making the MAGA crowd look good by comparison. The vet did approach them first, but then they did surround him and started jumping around chanting "DCS", and some guy (not the punchable one) started dancing mockingly in front of him. Can be seen from this angle: . Perhaps he really thought he was going to deescalate things between the "Hebrews" and the MAGAs, and maybe the kids were confused as to what he was doing and didn't mean to mock him. It's kind of hard to know now. (My money is on that at least some of them were mocking him, but it's rather tall to call it harassment.) Also, apparently, the drummer was at the head of an Indigenous People's march, slated on the same day as the pro-life march, that was headed towards the Lincoln Memorial, and the pro-lifers accidentally blocked it with their gathering point. Hey, it happens when the administration of a country is not operating. So it might just have been a freak misunderstanding. And then in accord to the current political climate, everyone assumed the worst about their opponents and refused to move an inch. It also seems that the most outlandish claims about the kids threatening the vet was made not by him but someone other from the march he was leading. What's truly appalling in all this is how quickly the American left leapt to online harassment, doxxing and calls to inflict violence on the kids. I'm pretty sure this wasn't the intention of the drummer who - perhaps unnecessarily - approached them to deescalate the situation with the "Hebrew". But I guess all it takes is a properly framed photo with a caption. We better all be careful what kind of faces we make when we're confronted by a stranger! At this point, I feel like investigating whether the kids were sufficiently insulting is moot. There's no defending this hateful mob reaction, much less that it jumped at unfounded news. Guess we're all fucked now. Goodnight. Really goodnight, I was going to go to sleep but you made me waste an hour investigating this. Now getting up in the morning is going to be hell. Hope you're happy, Hark.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 7:34:20 GMT
Wordweaver yeah your initial reaction of "why would pro lifers be fighting native americans?" was a good instinct. There was something fishy about this one.
The kids, who were chanting school slogans to drown out the hateful chants from the black protesters, started chanting along with the drum and chanting the native guy was doing....cause he walked into their group banging a drum. You cna hear them expressing confusion. The one grinning at him described it as intimidating because the native guy got up in his face and this was the second group of adults trying to antagonise them. The kid was trying to appear calm and none threatening to this person behaving in a weird way.
The native guy walked into their midst, and you can see him going up to kids who aren't moving nad getting their faces. He lied about this, claiming the kids were blocking him, that he was trying to get past them, as well as lying abotu the build a wall chants. I'm afraid I'm not going to take his version of events seriously after so much dishonesty.
Obviously exactly what everyone involved was thinking, but so far the kids seem like the LEAST racist group involved. I can hear recording of the other groups saying overtly racist things. The kids I can hear defending a black kid from racist insults and not making any racist comments throughout. The MAGA kids seem the least racist of the three sides involved.
Not to mention...these are kids and everyone else involved is a grown up.
A guy from Disney said he wanted to put these kids in a wood chipper while people at CNN proudly declared they wanted to punch them. (Including actual cannibal Reza Aslan. Not joking, he is a cannibal. Look it up. Ate human brain. Seriously. That's a true fact.) Probably should have waited on the child murdering opinions till they had more info, is all I'm saying.
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