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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 7:45:21 GMT
Amusingly CNN put up a story on how the MAGA hat is a symbol of hate like white hoods and confederate flags that you can read here.A little more recently (like 6 hours later) they put up another one to explain why actually no they aren't and maybe CNN got a bit over excited on this one, that you can read here.Interestingly they blame social media...when they as part of the media were furiously pushing this story before doing even basic investigation. MAGA hats make people see red (see what I did there?)
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Post by Horsie on Jan 22, 2019 9:32:03 GMT
Is it really surprising?
I mean yes, a lot of these news outlets dropped the ball here, but it seems like 4 times in 5 if someone's wearing a MAGA hat and being a racist fuck it's because they're a racist fuck wearing a MAGA hat, not because of some miscommunication or the media getting it all wrong.
Admit it, you probably read the initial story and thought "well of course they were being assholes".
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Bullc**p
Jan 22, 2019 11:35:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 11:35:18 GMT
I have to say I'm deeply uncomfortable with the left now calling "who cares if they did or did not do anything, they were pro-lifers wearing MAGA hats, so of course they were racists." I'm also not really comfortable with Hark's triumphant contrarianism, and grumpy from lack of sleep, so here goes. Wordweaver yeah your initial reaction of "why would pro lifers be fighting native americans?" was a good instinct. Are you kidding? Have you ever met a pro-life rally head on? I have sympathy for individual people who question morality of abortion, but the movement is basically an authoritarian hate group. The kids, who were chanting school slogans to drown out the hateful chants from the black protesters, started chanting along with the drum and chanting the native guy was doing....cause he walked into their group banging a drum. You cna hear them expressing confusion. The one grinning at him described it as intimidating And yet, they only started jumping and dancing and shouting when the drummer approached them, as seen on the video I linked. They were also apparently doing the tomahawk chop gesture, which seems to be a big deal in the US. They didn't seek out the Indians to harass, true, but that their first instinct when confronted with the drummer was mockery does not paint a picture of innocence. You say the grinning guy purported to be intimidated, yet he just stands there smirking, not stepping back an inch. You're not going to take the Native Americans' version of events seriously because you feel lied to (even though the kids did surround and mock the drummer, and the rest was an extrapolation of that), but you're going to take the version of a person with a clear (self-declared) political agenda as obviously more reliable? But I can deviladvocate even harder. So apparently one of the Indians said "Go back to Europe" to the kids. How horribly racist! But what if he was just throwing back the political declaration they were making by wearing MAGA hats? Supporting the man who's political platform rests on sending people back to Mexico, Middle East, etc., because America is for Americans? Standing, perhaps unknowingly, in the way of the Native American march? We already know at least some of the Native Americans in the march interpreted the kids behavior as hostile. And considering they were standing in their way declaring certain political affiliation, I can see why. I mean, we know "Black Israeli" are supremacists, and we know MAGAs tend to be supremacists, but there are no info about the Indian march standing for any such ideology. So among all the racism, randomly they are the most racist? The media fucked up by reporting the story they way they did, the left fucked up hard by condoning the harassment of the kids and refusing to consider new info because "only Nazis would defend Trump supporters and that photo is all context we need". But let's not flip the story on its head and say poor white right-wing kids did nothing wrong and Indians were racist agains them for no reason, because you know what? It also takes a certain bias to support this interpretation.
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Bullc**p
Jan 22, 2019 14:43:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 14:43:07 GMT
And here it is. Judging by the guy in red dancing, it's the same moment I linked to last time, just from up close. The drummer isn't in anyone's face yet. He just approaches, and they start laughing and mockingly dancing. I grant them, they look confused after that… then they decide to start dancing again, doing that chop gesture. I mean, there had a chance to only be assholes and not racist, but they blew it. So yeah. They were making fun of the drummer based on his race. It doesn't mean they deserved doxxing and the hideous witch hunt. But they deserve condemnation. Are we settled? Also, based on the tweet, now both leftists and rightists are angry at the media. Cool stuff. Sorry if I sounded too harsh in my previous post, Hark. I still love ya. But we got to be careful with biases. You seem awfully invested in the left being caught acting Just As Bad.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 22, 2019 15:38:47 GMT
At this point what I see is a bunch of kids doing their school chant when someone beating a drum at a very similar beat to their chant approached. They assumed that he was beating the drum out of support for them and reacted positively, jumping and dancing and chanting. When some of them start to realize something else is up they get confused.
I'm sorry, I don't see a definite "hand chop". There is a lot of hand waving but nothing like this:
I suppose you can see it if you want it to be there.
The "punchable face" kid gets it, even if it still hadn't sunk in for the rest of his peers. He decides to not react. If you watch closely you'll even see that he gets hit in the face several times by the drum baton as the older man is trying to goad him into reacting. That kid is the one that got the worst of it from the press for simply doing nothing.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 20:16:40 GMT
That just looks like the kid in red is doing loads of dances. If one of his many dancing motions looks a bit like a chop, it seems leap to say that was a deliberate racist act.
Generalising groups of people like that makes me uncomfortable. MAGA hat wearers and pro lifers in america amount to over a hundred million people. To write them all off as fundamentally evil seems dangerous. MAGA hat wearers tend to be supremacists? Like you think most peple who wear MAGA hats are white supremacists? That seems a rather extreme claim. I don't think america contains 100 million white supremacists.
I dont know why these kids have those hats or were at this rally. Most likely someone gave them the hats and they were made to come to the rally. I assume this because they are KIDS.
The black extremists and the native guys getting in their faces were ADULTS.
Even if the kids were racist (which I can't see in the footage) these are kids. Talking about who behaved better between a bunch of kids and grown ups? Here we have grown ups approaching kids and facing off with them and antagonising them. ADULTS arguing with KIDS. I don't hold kids to the standards of adults. The whole narrative here is messed up, trying to make kids culpable and punish them with trial by online mob. "Who behaved better, the kids or the adults?" The fact this question even has to be asked kinda says all you need to know about how the adults were behaving.
The story here, even if I take it at face value is "kids taunt old man" Yeah...thats what asshole kids do. How is that international news? Kids should get detention for that, not their lives ruined! More importantly why is the kids doing things that don't seem very racist (chanting along with a man who comes over chanting and playing a drum while they are chanting and standing still smiling) is a huge deal...but the black hebrews shouting horrendous racial insults isn't a big deal and doesn't get mentioned? Why is the bit where the "racist" MAGA kids defend their black class mate from racist abuse from the black hebrews not get a mention? Why didn't they talk about the bit where the "evil" grinning kid was trying to stop a class mate arguing with one of the natives (the one saying racist stuff), seemingly trying to defuse the situation? This feels less like news and more like propaganda, to get me angry at the people I'm supposed to hate, and I don't like that.
And to be clear, I would never want to crow or claim some kind of win over people who were taken in by this story. I've been duped tons of times but spin and BS, so if someone fell for this one, that's no shame. There is so much misinformation these days, its impossible not to be taken in sometimes. I would not want to insult anyone for having believed this story (and if I gave that impression I apologise.)
The poeple I WILL crow over are the lying types in the media spreading a false narrative (whether deliberately or because they are incompetent). They deserve to be held up for ridicule and humiliation so that they know we won't accept this kind of thing in the future. So yeah, I will mock all the media companies who ran with this and got a kid recieving death threats for the crime of smiling in a way they didn't like.
I do not like being lied to and manipulated. Years ago I was tricked into supporting the Iraq war by appeals to my better nature. By the time i wised up to the lies the bombs were already falling. Anyone who tries to appeal to my good nature to get me to cheer for evil gets my absolutely scorn. This case got everyone fired up with rage based on lies nad false narrative (unless the kids were saying "build the wall" in a psychic voice only Nathan Philips can hear, the guy is a liar.) It literally got dangerous, with death threats and angry mobs baying for blood. People were campaigning to get the kids expelled! So while there is no shame is falling for a dirty trick, the guys who played the dirty trick are not so easily forgiven.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 20:33:36 GMT
Julie wanted me to mention that outside of cases like rape or to protect the mothers life, she is against abortion and considers herself pro life.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 22, 2019 21:10:35 GMT
Watching the video, I see kids being douchebags. I've seen such behaviour before.
Even if they were approached, they probably should have just shut up, gotten out of the way and avoided the whole thing. That is presuming that they didn't know they were already obstructing, something that the Native Americans probably thought was being done deliberately.
I find it hard to sympathize with people like that. Now obviously they shouldn't be dissolved in acid or anything so horrendous, but they deserve some backlash. It isn't just because they're on the wrong side (which they are), but that they thought this kind of behaviour by them was justified is a problem.
Not that either side really took steps to deescalate the situation, so blame has to be to some degree placed on everyone involved.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 21:20:32 GMT
The thing iwth the kids here is that they are, ultimately, kids. Whether you think the kids are douchy (and I can see how someone might think that), they are still just kids and we can't really hold them accountable. Kids do stupid shit all the fucking time. I know I did (and you don't want to know what my son got up too lately! Lets just say his "edgy ironic sense of humour" didn't amuse the school so much. Doesn't stirring shit up run in the family? Do I have contrarian douche genes?) The grown ups here can be held accountable for their actions- antagonising, being racist, lying and all the rest. They don't have an excuse for this. And the grown ups in the media DEFINITELY don't. I mean am I supposed to believe the guardian, BBC, CNN and all the rest are so lazy they couldn't be bothered to watch the full video....or that they are lying about it for an agenda? Perhaps a combination. Either way, I'm glad they didn't get away with it.
Did you know that the native guy is an activist with a history of accusing students of harassing him? Maybe he just gets unlucky around students...but based on this evidence I have a theory about what might be causing him to have these problems. He's not as overtly awful as the black hebrews (who are cartoon evil like skeletor and seem to hate basically everyone and everything that isn't a black hebrew) but his behaviour here makes him seem like a scummy character.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 22, 2019 21:28:59 GMT
It is wise to not play the "let boys be boys" card in a situation like this. I ultimately think it worse that kids are allowed to get away with shit like this because "oh they're just kids." They need to be held responsible for their actions as much as anyone else. Of course what happens to them should differ from what happens to adults, but there is no reason to let them get out of this thinking that they were in the right. That they were wrong in their actions needs to be made abundantly clear to them. What they should have done needs to be made clear to them.
I'm not even a particularly harsh disciplinarian when it comes to teaching, but if they behaved like that on a field trip of mine they'd never go on another ever again. At the very least. They need to lose privileges for that kind of behaviour and it should be stuff they value.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 21:29:04 GMT
At this point what I see is a bunch of kids doing their school chant when someone beating a drum at a very similar beat to their chant approached. Nah, I'm not buying it. The beat is completely off, and it doesn't explain why some of the guys started mockingly dancing after they stopped chanting. What was it, their school's Fortnite dance? It wasn't to the beat of the drum, either. But you know, how it went: "I suppose you can see it if you want it to be there." I'm sorry, I don't see a definite "hand chop". There is a lot of hand waving but nothing like this Okay, you may be right. That wasn't quite convincing. Better now? Seriously, I can't be making up this shit. Despite people claiming that this story was oh-so taken out of context, with most publications showing just the smug kid bit, the more videos I watch of these shitheads, the worse they end up looking! This still doesn't excuse doxing, or shoddy reporting, but fuck… About the only big thing missing from the reports were the Black Israelites. Yeah, they were taunting the kids. Yeah, they were much bigger shitheads. Then the Catholic schoolboys decided to do the Christian thing and respond with their own taunts and chants. They were also slowly streaming closer to the BIH in a massive group (look at their position at the beginning of the linked video and then further on). What I'm saying is: this actually corroborates the drummer's version more. I thought that maybe he was way too eager to insert himself there to deescalate things in his mind, but I can kind of see why he thought things were getting dangerous. That kid is the one that got the worst of it from the press for simply doing nothing. Yeah, that's kinda true. And I sort of felt for him. It's hard being shit on for doing nothing at all. Then you realize that he could have just stepped one step out of the way and we wouldn't have this fucking conversation. It's visible in the video that the Native Americans were moving through the crowd, and his peers stepped aside behind his back, but he just stood there grinning (no doubt in paralyzing fear of the scary violent single old man with a drum!), and when the others noticed he's blocking the way, they started yelling and cheering (no doubt trying to sing with him!). Yeah, I was going to exonerate the poor kid after Hark's news (at least him), but then you look at the wide angle and realize all of the guys around were moving around completely relaxed, and he alone was standing completely still directly in front of the drummer, grinning and staring him in the face. Excuse me, in what universe are we living where this isn't considered threatening behaviour? You can't even say the drummer randomly walked into his face and started drumming! It happens some time after the drummer stands in front of the kids, and the guy doesn't even start close to the drummer, he's in the second row! He moves to him! Or at the very least (the exact moment isn't on the film I linked) refuses to move back with his own peers and starts staring down the drummer. So the original story actually holds better than I thought. Thanks for making me search this out. The story here, even if I take it at face value is "kids taunt old man" Yeah...thats what asshole kids do. How is that international news? I don't think it is international news. I've never seen it in my local news outlets. I only know of it because I follow an American feminist blog. Okay, so asshole kids are racist. Got it. We should then just accept that boys will be boys? Not even condemn their behaviour? More importantly why is the kids doing things that don't seem very racist (chanting along with a man who comes over chanting and playing a drum while they are chanting and standing still smiling) is a huge deal...but the black hebrews shouting horrendous racial insults isn't a big deal and doesn't get mentioned? Because how does this excuse MAGAs' behaviour towards the Native Americans? What was the news supposed to say? "Provoked by Black extremists, MAGA kids taunt a Native American man"? Why is the bit where the "racist" MAGA kids defend their black class mate from racist abuse from the black hebrews not get a mention? The bit where one of the white kids say "it's not rape when you enjoy it" was also cut, so it evens out. (And it has nothing to do with their behaviour towards Native Americans, too.) Why didn't they talk about the bit where the "evil" grinning kid was trying to stop a class mate arguing with one of the natives (the one saying racist stuff), seemingly trying to defuse the situation? And then he got to escalating the situation again with his behaviour caught in the video? Here we have grown ups approaching kids and facing off with them and antagonising them. ADULTS arguing with KIDS. I don't hold kids to the standards of adults. Again, let's stress this out: a whole of about 7-8 adults and a whole mob of late teenagers (this was a high school, not a kindergarten). And they decided (by their own report, with permission from their adults) to respond to taunts with their own taunts, which is a great lesson of Catholic hypocrisy, but that's another thing entirely. Also, these poor innocent kids were old enough to be there for a political really. So I assume that someone told them how to behave when encountering rude counter-protesters? Was it too much for them to take? I will give you one thing, that one Native American guy was saying some nativist shit to that one kid, that they were there millenia before. Shit. I guess that excuses everything. The Native Americans were oppressing the poor defenceless throng of white kids all along, being the real racists.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 22, 2019 21:41:14 GMT
StyxD I have to say you are kind of out on your own here. Basically everyone is bailing on this story. CNN and the Guardian have walked it back, people are deleting tweets they said over this.
You are obviously entitled to your own view on events, and you being a lone voice doesn't make you wrong, but your interpretation is very fringe at this stage. Left wing media don't consider this situation defensible anymore.
One thing I will add though- I'm confused by the accusations of me saying "boys will be boys" I didnt know "dont treat children like adults" was controversial. Kids can be punished for bad behaviour, absolutely, but they are still kids. Their minds aren't developed and they don't have the full faculties of an adult. Thats a basic tenant of society, I dunno how else to explain it. I know its a bit of a feminist catch phrase at the minute...but I seriously can't treat children as adults. Child does stupid shit vs adult doing stupid shit are not the same. We dont let kids vote, we dont let them drink and we don't let them go to war. They dont have the responsibilities of adulthood. If they do something wrong, punish them, absolutely (my son is not getting his internet back for a loooong time after latest prank...) But I don't punish them as I would an adult, because that's just crazy. If a group of kids and a group of adults are behaving badly, its the adults I'm going to blame.
If an adult tries to start trouble with kids and goads the kids into responding...the adult is the one that should take the wrap.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 22, 2019 21:49:26 GMT
If children behave inappropriately, they need to be shown that that behaviour is inappropriate. We call this a teachable moment.
If an adult goads a child into behaving poorly, both need to be corrected. After all, our experiences as children shape the adults we become and if we keep getting away with shit just because we're kids that is not a particularly fortuitous start to adulthood. I did say that "punishment" should be different for the different parties, but the kids absolutely shouldn't get a free pass. So I'm not saying kids and adults should be treated the same.
And how old are these "kids" anyway?
StyxD has made it even clearer for me. Thanks for doing the research.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 21:55:49 GMT
StyxD I have to say you are kind of out on your own here. Basically everyone is bailing on this story. CNN and the Guardian have walked it back, people are deleting tweets they said over this. Probably because the original story, as I heard it, was kind of shit. They claimed the kids sought out the Indians to interrupt their rally and taunt them. That's not what happened. As I've said, the shoddy reporting is inexcusable. But looking at the videos myself, it's not like a total reverse happened and the Indians went to harass the kids. And I'm not going to accept that narrative either. And looking at it, I find the kids behaviour more contemptible than the Indians. That is all. I'm confused by the accusations of me saying "boys will be boys" I didnt know "dont treat children like adults" was controversial. Kids can be punished for bad behaviour, absolutely, but they are still kids. Their minds aren't developed and they don't have the full faculties of an adult. Thats a basic tenant of society, I dunno how else to explain it. Again, they were there for a political rally. It's kind of hard to spin it that there were just not equipped to handle a situation like this. Also, in what world jeering at an old man and staring him down is acceptable child behaviour? The drummer wasn't doing anything provocative or threatening, aside from standing close to them, so what come? How is this situation impossible to handle peacefully for a 16-year old? I think I just don't understand how "they're children and those others were adults" applies in this situation. It really wasn't complicated!
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Post by StyxD on Jan 22, 2019 22:45:33 GMT
Julie wanted me to mention that outside of cases like rape or to protect the mothers life, she is against abortion and considers herself pro life. And I can sympathize. This was my position for the most of my life. But you see, the pro-life movement is something entirely different from actually being "pro-life". I think the best analogy would be to compare it with my experiences with the message of the Gospel and the Catholic Church. You're part of that group that has those really cool and positive ideals, love, life, care for others. It's really great, you just want to bring good into the world, peacefully. Then you realize there's somehow a lot of supremacists and misogynists all around for some reason. Okay, that's bad, but sure the ideals are good, we just need to chastise these people when they come up so that they don't eclipse our message. Then you realize your leaders love these hateful guys, they can't get enough of them! They invite them to gather and tell them how great work they're doing, how good they are at spreading love and defending innocent lives. Even though it's plain that those people don't care about the ideals at all, they just want to unload their hate at people who disagree with them. Then you realize the leaders care about pandering to these people way more than the ideals they confess. They still talk about them, but when they actually do anything, it always winds up to bolster supremacists and misogynists. Then you realize it was always about bolstering supremacists and misogynists, because holding a grip on society is worth compromising any ideals. Sorry I got a little to personal here. This is not really related to the case discussed here.
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