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Post by Canuovea on Jan 15, 2015 23:22:28 GMT
The funny thing is that even in that article, the Jews and Muslim response has been: "What the fuck?"
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Post by StyxD on Jan 17, 2015 12:31:54 GMT
To my endless amazement, some American (former) cardinal is even more stupid than Polish episcopate. I did not think it possible! www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/13/former-highest-ranking-u-s-cardinal-blames-feminized-church-for-the-catholic-churchs-problems/?tid=hp_mm&hpid=z3What's more fun, on the feminist blog I snagged the link from, some Polish person in the comments has expressed similar surprise. So I'm not alone. Fun fact: the ban is probably still in effect in Poland; the drop happened several years before I was born, and yet I'm an adult now and have NEVER seen a girl serving by the altar in Poland during my whole life. The guy in the article would probably be happy to hear this. And then crushed to hear that despite this, the Church in my country seems to be running out of altar boys just like the rest of the world, only a little later. Many of those same men are militant conservatists, some bordering on neofascism. Further pushing the Church into being a political group with less and less ties to the source book. But then, that's a welcome development for some. Now pardon me, I have to go face things that I've been procrastinating for too long.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 17, 2015 17:33:35 GMT
Now pardon me, I have to go face things that I've been procrastinating for too long. Confession?
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 17, 2015 17:38:31 GMT
A day ago I got 30 minutes of sleep, because I had procrastinated on things earlier. I just woke up from a long long sleep. I'm feeling a bit better about myself all around. So StyxD, you have my sympathy and... I was going to offer editing services if you were writing an essay but then realized that I can't read Polish... I'm still sleepy!
Edit: As for that article...
It is these bozos that Francis is keeping under control. There can be no doubt that when he is out, they'll come screaming back. And it is clear to me that they are afraid of women. These same type of people are the reason that the Catholic Church is/was so anti-female for so long. The reason they decided to stop letting priests marry... when was it? Sometime in the 1100s?
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 17, 2015 19:42:38 GMT
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 17, 2015 20:01:39 GMT
The Pope has a point. Some people are sensitive towards certain issues. And to some, their religion is as dear to them as their parents... or children. And they are about as willing to take insults and criticism towards their religion as they would be about their parents, regardless of the truth of it. Pride and honour, essentially.
The Pope's conclusion, though, that we should then not allow insults is flawed. Very greatly flawed. Truth and free speech, especially the notion of speaking truth to power, must never be disallowed for the sake of someone's feelings.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Jan 17, 2015 20:20:50 GMT
To some people freedom of speech is as dear to them as their family, and even their own lives.
People just died for that freedom and the pope made a mockery of it by blaming the victims.
At this point I want to meet the pope just so I can insult his mother. Not sure what bonus you get in the afterlife for getting punched by a pope.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 17, 2015 20:53:44 GMT
I agree that some people value their freedoms in much the same way, which is important.
But what the Pope said is technically true. Had they just shut up, this wouldn't have happened... but the cost would have been too great. A loss of such freedom is unacceptable. Still, the manner in which he said it is questionable. I have to agree with one of the comments that basically said that when people were not allowed to speak truth to power, things were pretty shit. And the Catholic Church would indeed just love that, wouldn't they? The Pope is hardly impartial in this thing.
And look at how we treat whistleblowers... and I don't just mean Snowden or Manning types.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 17, 2015 23:12:21 GMT
Nah, I don't think it's a sin to call out their bullshit. Jesus did that, like, all the time. And then history came a full, tragic circle. Besides, it's not like I have to obey the priesthood or anything. The prime reason why I didn't become priest myself is because there's noooo way in hell I'd swear obedience to people like that with a clear conscience. And that was before they all went bonkers. Aww, but It's the thought that counts. I, on the other hand, can read English, and thus, your essays. Naw, hell, he is not. If you could read Polish, I could show you. Actually, I think being anti-female is much older than the ban, and it happened the same reason as everywhere else: religion was used to sanctify existing social structures. The same way it blessed tribal warlords into God-appointed kings, despite it having jack shit to do with the bible. I find this beyond reprehensible. See, we've seen this before. This "we don't condone, but". There's always a but. But in here, we have a pathetic, cynical, begging for respect. "See, what happens when you mock religion? I mean, not us, no, we would never... but you should respect religion. Not make fun of! See, what happens, when you mock religion? You should totally respect it. And could you, perchance, respect us by the way?" I also have an urge to write a "yo momma" joke about Pope Francis. As a matter of principles. Look, I'm pretty sure Charlie Hebdo was, all things considered, a contemptible, cynical, lowest level of satire. And I know that for conservatives-slash-fundamentalists, the idea of disapproving of something and allowing it to exist is a foreign concept. I'm saddened, though not surprised, that the pope feels the same way. Also, it's really pathetic and cynical, have I mentioned that?
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 17, 2015 23:42:56 GMT
The Pope's momma such a failure, she raised someone who victim blamed shooting victims!
I'm not sure he actually did that, but he still was insensitive about it.
At least he is trying to keep these guys under control.
And of course they were anti-female for a while. But it got so bad at that point they were able to ban priests marrying.
At this point, I'm writing fewer essays, and more lesson plans.
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Post by StyxD on Jan 18, 2015 0:14:47 GMT
Thing is, either he's completely ignorant what's going on in Poland (or was going, in 2014), or he's complacent with it. And it's not all right, not with me. We had some crazy shit. Will have more, probably.
It had nothing to do with being anti-female and everything to do with feudal politics.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 18, 2015 0:21:22 GMT
Maybe. But the old testament, and the new one in some parts, is pretty anti-female. The old testament comes from a society where women were almost certainly seen as goods and nothing more. For instance, raping a virgin? All you had to do was pay some silver to her father and marry her, poof, all is forgiven. "Sorry I damaged your property, making her worth nothing to you, so here's some money and I'll take her off your hands."
Not that it was consistent. A woman did get her own book named after her, after all. Ruth.
Lets not all forget the rib lady dooming us all. That was Augustine, which played largely into the grand will of the Church. So I dunno.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 18, 2015 0:54:27 GMT
What do you mean?
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Post by StyxD on Jan 19, 2015 1:07:35 GMT
Hoo, man, you're opening the floodgates. I could talk about it for pages. But I'll try to be brief.
So, around March 2014, shortly after I parted ways with... don't know how to translate the term, but it was a youth group by a church, within the same church, I read a flyer hanging on the door. It was about a (church-organised) panel, whose goal was to warn people about the subversive "gender ideology" that is set to threaten families in all of Poland.
I scoffed and though "Well, good thing I left them, the church is going to shit if they're going to invite some conservative nutjobs to spew bullshit".
But actually, it later turned out that it was a country-wide champaign, complete with sermons and media statements, initiated by the bishops. I've seen opinions that it was done to redirect outrage at one bishop's statement, that actually, in pedophilia scandals, the victims are the priests who should be protected from seductively acting children. I remember the statement, not when it was made, don't know if there's any connection. But anyway.
Y'all know what a gender is? Well, duh. But there's no corresponding word in Polish. And Poland's bishops don't know what it is, they just caught feminists using it.
So there we go; the Catholic Hype Machine (which is a cool title for a metal album, take notes, Powerwolf) starts working. The good, God-fearing folk is being beset by "gender", a Marxism-derived (WTFsic) ideology (OMGwut) according to which biological sex does not really exist and everyone should freely chose which to be, preferably after trying both.
This outrageous ideology is being peddled to children (because think of the children!) in kindergartens by professional sex-educators, wielding curricula certified by Soviet European Union, who teach children to put condoms on bananas and encourage them to masturbate in public.
Now, the context is that there are some kindergartens have adopted some gender-equality elements into their curricula. I don't know where those come from and who decided that they were adopted. I'm not a parent, so I'm not up to speed with latest trends in pre-school education.
So anyway, bishops go on to urge responsible parents to go to their children's kindergartens and, should they detect a "gender" infestation, demand they stop conducting those dangerous social experiments in the name of political correctness right now.
That's the gist of the happening. Moral panic ensued (among those suckers that did not shook their heads in disbelief that this shit is real), people shouted at headmasters, in the end it turned out that those gender-equality additions to curricula were completely innocuous (of course they were).
The Church kinda continued on this note for a while; that modern society does not support the healthy, God-given, gender TRUE INTENDED roles of men and women, and that it was the root cause of familial crisis in Poland (read: not enough children are born and not enough of those who are born are baptised). At which point some people though "hey, isn't it shit how those men who sworn to never have families and were taught to avoid women whenever possible, since they lead to sin, try to teach people how they should be parents?".
The epilogue was when bishops worked they way up to grade school, where they perused a schoolbook (I'm cutting a bunch of details here) and decided to complain to the government that this book does not support traditional roles enough, and this should be amended. The government was like "Naw, thanks, no", which may be a normal reaction to y'all, but not something that should be taken for granted in Poland.
Oh, and the debacle also culminated in some hilarious brainfarts. One bishop said, in translation: "We are aware that false equality of the sexes offers many illusory advantages. While it may be convenient for mothers to have their sons help keep the houses tidy, we should really be wary of hurting those children's development in the long run."
Ok, this isn't a perfect translation (it's kinda slanted so that you see what most people made of it).
So of course, Internet immediately exploded in laughter that Church claims it's immoral for men to clean up after themselves and not have their wives/mothers do it for them. It resulted in some good jokes, including this one (which was a comic):
A man walks into a confessional. "Father, I need to confess..." "Yes?" "I sinned with my sister!" *Priest is shocked* "I helped her clean house!"
So then, it all kinda rolled over, and not much came out of it. Well, except people being disgusted with the Church. And conservatives taking to use "gender" as a general insult.
But I could go on, and on about other things that happen in Poland. This wasn't the worst of 2014, just the most crazy and out there, so I described this to give you the taste.
But thinking of it makes me tired, so goodnight now.
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Post by Horsie on Jan 19, 2015 1:37:31 GMT
Wow. I didn't think they were so disconnected from reality.
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