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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 0:28:21 GMT
I hate the prequals, you hate the prequals, we all hate the prequals. We've all seen the Redlettermedia reviews ("I may have gone too far in a few places!")
But whats great about these movies is that the more you watch them, the more stupid things you can think of. So lets get a bit interractive with your hate.
What stupid shit in those movies annoyed you? Don't just say Jar-Jar or too much CGI! I want some original stuff I haven't heard before.
Let me get the balls rolling. At the end of episode 1, Obi-Wan gets really mad and starts yelling to defeat Darth Maul. He seems to fight a lot better once he gets pissed off. But in return of the Jedi didn't we learn that doing that turns you to the dark side? And you shouldn't be out for revenge and lashing out in hatred? But Obi-Wan totally wins and kills his enemy and this is treated as great and no problem. Not only that but Quigon tried being all calm and pieceful and meditative while fighting and he just got his ass kicked, So basically if you want to win don't be a loser Jedi, come straight over to the awesome darkside cause its miles better.
Was that meant to be the moral? Or is George Lucas just utter incompetant? (Don't answer that.)
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Post by Horsie on Jan 14, 2016 0:33:42 GMT
Damn, I'm going to have to sit this one out. I saw the first prequel when it came out, only the once, and it turned me off of Star Wars for good.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 0:56:24 GMT
Why the hell is princess Leia a princess? We all assumed it would be because her mum is Queen Amadala. But then we find out that that queens on Naboo are elected and only get a few years as queen, like a president. So her daughter wouldnt be a princess, since its not a hereditary position. This also raises he question of why the peopel of Naboo keep voting for young girls to be their leaders, as the new queen after Amadala is also a young girl. Anyway, at the time she has the baby, shes just a senator, not royalty at all. Whats more, Leia was raised by another senator, played by the guy from NYPD Blue. He isnt the king of anywhere. Is his wife the queen of Aldaron? Cause that seems like something that should have been mentioned! The prequals cleverly make the original movies stop making any sense.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 1:01:09 GMT
Obi-wan was actually losing the fight with Maul until he focused and calmed down, and Maul's anger prevented him from seeing his danger coming until it was too late. So you're wrong about that. Also, Luke beating his father when he was angry didn't make everyone go "ah! The Dark Side is the best after all!"
How they handled Grevious was embarrassing.
I also thought that the Jedi were dumb, but I also think that this is a good thing in the long run, after all. You have to see them as a stagnant, regressive, religious institution that fucks everything up. If it wasn't intentional that they be seen that way, it doesn't matter, because that improves the series as a whole.
But something more specific... hmm...
Dooku. Not as a whole, but... in Episode 3. Palpy tells Anakin to "Kill Him" and Dooku just looks like "What? This wasn't the plan?" It takes a couple of moments for Anakin to kill him too. Dooku knew who Palpatine was, that he was a Sith Lord. Why couldn't he have said "I'll talk! I know who the real Sith Lord is!"
Palpy relied on Dooku not doing that. Kinda dumb.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 1:04:36 GMT
Lukes Uncle Owen is described as not having the same ideals as Anakin by Obi Wan, implying Uncle Owen new Anakin and the two disagreed about fighting in the Clone Wars. Also its stated that Anakin wanted Luke to have his light saber, but Owen was against it. We get an impression that Owen and Anakin were brothers who disgreed on whether they should stay home or fight. Instead it turns out Owen is just some random guy Anakin met once (when he brought a corpse home and then fucked off) and then Obi Wan showed up (giving them a baby before fucking off!)
Now I know Obi Wan fibbed about who was Anakins father, but this makes it seem like literally everything he said was total lies. Was he just making up shit the whole time!
But he's not the only guy fibbing about the Clone Wars. Senator NYPD Blue sends Leia with a message that Obi Wan served her father in the Clone Wars. No he didn't! The Senator never gave Obi Wan orders, he wasn't in charge of him. Her adopted father never fought in the Clone Wars at all. He stayed back on the capital planet.
Why is everyone lying about the Clone Wars? Think I am taking shit out of context? Check it out for yourselves.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 1:10:51 GMT
Well, you don't know what Senator Organa was doing during the Clone Wars. So technically Obi-Wan might have served under him. I don't think he actually appeared in the 2nd one, so he might have been in the military and then got elected to the Senate as a hero or something. Heck, who even knows how Alderaan works? We never actually get any insight into it!
Also, Obi-wan is an asshole. He always kind of was, this just puts it into perspective. He wanted to recruit Luke to kill his father, and not actually let Luke know about that fact. Sure, Machiavellian, but definitely assholish. Heck, Obi-Wan is kinda like Quinn-Tain... waaaaaait.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 1:14:14 GMT
Canuovea, no Luke's anger showed that rage can make you powerful, but its dangerous and you shouldn't go that way so he rejects it. There's nothing like that with Obi Wan. He doesn't chill out or meditate to win and saying Maul lost because of his anger is making stuff up that was never shown or stated in the film. You can't defend stuff by just making up motivations and reasons that the film didn't include. Maul lost because he stood looking dopey while he got chopped in half (despite having the high ground, which we learn in episde 3 instantly makes you win.) He didn't look angry or hateful when this happened, just goofy and surprised. Obi Wan didn't look especially calm or at peasce either. The difference is that in return of the jedi there is subtext and meaning to the fight, in episode 1 its just bashing glow sticks together. Obi Wan doesn't win any kind of ideological battle with Maul becuase there is no ideological battle. It' just fighting because it looks cool.
What should have happened is he gets angry, rushes in and gets his ass kicked and hes falling back from the frenzied Darth Maul but then he hears Quin-Gon's voice through the force telling him to clear his thoguths of emotion etc and that lets him turn the tables.
Also why didn't Qui=Gon disappear nad become one with the force? He must have been a pretty shitty Jedi. Based on his behaviour in the film and performance against Maul, I think its safe to say this was the case.
Maul shouldn't have died at all, at least not until episode 3. He was a cool awesome bad guy everyone loved and would have made a great running bad guy. He killed quigon so anakin could grow up to hate him and want revenge. Instead we get fucking Dooku. Making Christopher Lee play a count is funny right off the back, but the guy was just bland muck evil. He was literally the most bog standard bad guy imaginable. Christopher Lee is cool as fuck but Dooku was lame. The film makers seemed to realise this as they killed him off as quickly as the could at the start of the third film.
What was with the prequals and killing off all the main bad guys? They get a differnet antagonist in each mother, when it should be one enemy so it can build up to a third film where Anakin gives into hate and kills his sworn enemy.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 1:19:48 GMT
It is never stated or shown that the senator of Alderon has any connection to Obi Wan. Do they even speak on screen? The army is run by jedi commanding clones. No senator is ever shown giving orders in the war in anyway, except for Padame in the second film (and she just happens to be there, after that she stays home getting pregnant and suddenly being really useless, talking about babies rooms rather than helping with the whole war thing.) Why would a Jedi general be taking orders from a civilian senator? The way the prequals present the characters that makes no fucking sense.
Man canuovea, you're going full on devil's adovocate here, huh? Going to try to defend the prequals? The most hated movies in the history of hate? That sounds like a pretty scarey challenge. Not scared yet? You will be. You will be.
How come the clone army has no normal human officers? The empire army has tons of officers that aren't clones, so where did they are come from? We even seen Moff Tarkin when they are building the Death Star at the end. How did he manage to end up out ranking vader when he only joined the army after the clone wars? Was there some kind of fast track to recruit and entire army officer staff right after order 66 went off? A smarter film would have had the human officers commanding the republican army during the war, with jedis helping (the same way darth assisted the imperials, but was outside their normal command structure.) Then there could have bene something with the army getting more power and support ing Palapatine more them more as he continued to favour them over the civillian authorities.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 1:36:02 GMT
It was pretty clear to me that while Obi-Wan was dangling from that thingy that he had to calm himself down.
None of the Jedi did that, and it is kind of explained at the end of the 3rd movie, or at least hinted at, that it was something Qui-Gon was working on but only Yoda and Obi-Wan were able to master.
Odd, though, that Vader apparently didn't yet still returned as a Force Ghost. I mean, his body didn't disappear. The idea that being able to Force Ghost yourself is a special technique you have to train for sort of ruins that ending entirely.
Dooku could have been interesting. There could have been currents or ideas at play there. But he was just straight up "I'm an evil asshole, hurr hurr hurr!" And not in a fun way, like Palpy, but in a bland way. Much like some other villains I could mention.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 1:37:39 GMT
Actually, and this goes to your point about Organa, they did have regular officers who weren't clones and weren't jedi. Usually this was for the fleet, though. In fact, the Seppies had the same thing.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 2:15:35 GMT
Tell me the point where Obi Wan is trying to be calm. I see him focusing on getting the light saber, but I dont see any calming. He's focused on getting a new weapon not on getting rid of anger.
Go to about 4.05 to see him over the bit. If anything Darth Maul seems more chilling out, hes sauntering aroudn and knocking down sparks.
When did human offcers appear? The Jedi council made decisions about how to conduct the war without refering to anyone. They were the commanders setting stratedgy and every time we see clones its jedi leading them. If any other commanders appear it must be a walk on part.
The fact that they through in a line about Quigon becoming a ghost was so lame. It was such an obvious attempt to retcon the fact they fucked up and forgot something. Why wasn't quigon giving guidance through the force? Why the fuck was Quigon even a character? Obi wan was trained by yoda, he said so in the original films explicitly. But we never see yoda train him and he has another guy doing his training right up until he is declared a Jedi. Did lucas even watch his own movies? thats not sarcastic. I honestly dont think he rewatched them before writing the prequals.
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 2:40:11 GMT
He certainly calmed down at around the 4:30 mark. He's not shouting, he sort of looks down to steady himself, etc. Maul is so emotional and angry he just sort of gloats like an asshat.
Quigon was actually my favourite character in 1. I've always liked mentor figures, but of extra special note is that he doesn't give a shit about the council. Because fuck those guys.
Also, Obi-wan was trained by Yoda. All "Younglings" are trained by Yoda, as per episode 2.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 2:51:46 GMT
Canuovea you seem to be saying what you want the scene to be, rather than what the scene is. It would be great if Obi Wan calming down was what made him win. Noticing a new weapon is what makes him win. His state of calm or anger is not what determines defeat or victory.
Obi Wan was trained when he was 6 years old in a giant classroom with about 30 other kids? Gotta say thats not how I imagined learning to be a jedi!
Also when he says about Luke "was I any different when you trained me?" The answer should have been "well you were a toddler, so yes, pretty different!"
I'd mock QuiGon but a lot of "ginnys" problems have already been torn apart by red letter media. What I will have a go at him for is his casual attitude to slavery. QuiGon just doesn't give a fuck about it. It doesn't bother him at all.
He wants to free anakin because anakin is useful to him and the jedi. Slavery in general is not his concern and he doesn't make any effort to free Anakins mum. He could have come back with a ton of jedi later and demanded her release, or just bring some cash to buy her.
Mind you, hes not the only Jedi for whome slavery is not a big problem. These guys breed slaves by the thousand to fight wars for them, aging them articifially so they can get them shipped off to fight and die quicker. They don't just tolerate slavery, they actively practice it. When the Jedi get shot its meant to be a shocking betrayal, but really its slaves killing their crul masters. So I guess the jedi are consistant in being horrible people...not sure thats what Lucas was aiming for....
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Post by Canuovea on Jan 14, 2016 2:59:42 GMT
He couldn't have noticed it if he wasn't calm.
And as for slavery, what was he supposed to do? I mean, the Jedi seem to avoid coming in and forcing everyone else to accept their way of doing things. Maybe they figured that cultural imperialism is bad? It is probably more like the Prime Directive than anything else.
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Post by Harkovast on Jan 14, 2016 3:13:26 GMT
The planet was part of the republic and the republic outlaws slavery. If the jedi aren't there to enforce the law, what the hell are they suppose to do? It wasnt even like he was upset or felt bad or was trying but couldnt do it. He says he wants the boy and his mother, watto sasy you can only have one, he says he wants the boy then. He then uses his force powers to change the chance dice so he can get the boy. He makes no further effort to find a way to free the mother.
There has never been any prime directive stuff in Star Wars. The republic literally kills you if you try to leave. In episode 2 the bugs want to leave so Yoda premeptively attacks with a giant army of clones!
So if a planet ignores the laws on slavery, the jedi dont care. Try to leave the republic becuase its corrupt and horrible and allows slavery? The jedi will start the largest war in history to stop you.
Why are Sith and the Empire the bad guys? I dont see how the republic and its noble jedi are much better!
I always felt the bugs got a raw deal from the second film. They arrest anakin and padame and are goign to execute them...but those two did sneak onto the planet, went into restricted areas and killed multiple bugs. Putting them to death in an arena is harsh but its their planet and Anakin and Padame went there and caused trouble.
But despite this being the bugs planet, the jedi just invade nad demand their people are released, showing that jedi are above the law. They care about protecting other jedi, recruiting for their order and keeping the republic together. Beyond that they really don't give a fuck about anyone or anything. Especially not slaves!
How come Anakin never went back for his mum? You would think that would have been higher up on is to-do-list. Or maybe he could have had someone sent to get her? Rather than just totally forgetting about her existance for about a decade before going back and arriving about 30 second before she was going to die (well timed, Anakin! Half an hour later the sand people would probably have buried/eaten her corpse.)
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