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Post by Harkovast on Dec 20, 2017 21:32:52 GMT
See if you want certain things to happen in a movie, like a land battle or a chase, a skilled film maker can set them up cleverly. We can see the logic of whats happening, understand the situation and why the characters are doing what they are doing. The new one just makes up bizarre shit where the characters make strange, arbitrary declarations about what needs to happen that don't seem to follow any rational sense at all.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 20, 2017 23:09:21 GMT
For some reason the media and critics were gushing over this film but audience reaction has shit on it. The media outlets are now trying to justify their decision by saying people who dont like it are just stuck in the past and need to kill the past like this movie says (even though its the BAD GUY that says that) and are sexist (yes, they really are trying to push that.) Well, the "sexist" excuse is probably corporate mandate (they tried it before to silence criticisms and will probably do it again) perpetuated by commentators who want to look hip. I also heard a more refined variation of the "stuck in the past" - basically, pointing a finger at people and saying "neeeeerd!". If you care at all about Star Wars canon and want to story to make sense, you're just a fanboy and can't appreciate the wonderful subversive completely fresh approach to Star Wars. Alternatively, people were angry when Force Awakens was the same as old Star Wars and now they're angry that Last Jedi is completely different, so they just cannot be pleased! For you see, when making a sequel you can either make a completely clone or something completely unrelated, no other options exist. But you know, maybe it really is a problem. Caring about sensible plot that goes anywhere in Star Wars is really unreasonable, always has been. Just watch the colourful lasers, damn it, and appreciate how high-brow the director's subversiveness is! Also, making fun of the nerds seems to be a value in itself. For you see, they're not cool people like us. Neither are, for example, the losers who were familiar with Marvel characters before the Iron Man movie. And you know, I'm not even a Star Wars fan. I don't remember the original trilogy and prequels were badly written (though at least they had a point). I just really dislike plots that don't go anywhere, and now that Last Jedi is done dismantling both the original trilogy and Force Awakens, there really is nothing to anticipate anymore. The sole work from Star Wars I ever cared for more than superficially was KotOR 2. Which, by the way, did the exact same setup as Last Jedi a magnitude better, with the writers accurately predicting the futility of the Star Wars universe. Really, Force Awakens did nothing interesting, and now that Last Jedi turned out to be a joke, there's nothing more to see from the franchise. Why must people keep trying to turn shitty, souless cash grab movies into progressive mile stones that we need to celebrate and champion? I dont care how diverse the film is or how many women there are in it if the film itself is complete horse shit! Well, the hip thing de jour is to "reclaim" known brands for social justice. I guess some people support projects like "Star Wars with female protagonist", "Ghost Busters with female protagonist" or "Middle Earth with brown-skinned hobbits" on principle, nevermind if they're actually good. I'm sure it makes the marketing department happy.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 20, 2017 23:22:32 GMT
StyxD I agree with everything you just said there. That's spot on. I'd quote things you said that I liked by I'd be quoting the entire post.
Important causes are being reduced to marketing slogans. It's so gross!
Watching the film, I felt a sense of fear. I was thinkign "Is THIS what people think is good?" I had heard the reviews were good so I was horrified to think that something like this was getting universal appeal.
When I spot to people and heard about the backlash I was so relieved, like the whole world hadn't just gone nuts while I wasn't paying attention.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 20, 2017 23:29:24 GMT
Well, to be honest, I do feel like we're the crazy ones. People are loving the movie but they can't really explain why, apart from "there were a few good scenes". Meanwhile, the many criticism don't count because freshness. It's like they perceive something we don't, and we're poorer for it.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2017 0:33:22 GMT
Most poeple I talk to didn't like it. A genreral sense of disappointment, and it not really being what they wanted seems very common. The big hype media machine is giving the movie a tongue bath but most real people seem a lot less impressed.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 21, 2017 0:54:05 GMT
I dunno, my one friend who's seen it loved it, though again, I don't understand why.
By the way, to quote the classic: "If you want a picture of the future of Star Wars, imagine Luke Skywalker pressing on the boobs of giant space sea cow with oddly human-like udders - forever!"
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Post by Horsie on Dec 21, 2017 1:24:40 GMT
I have to say, without sound or any sort of context, that's some Eraserhead shit right there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 3:24:47 GMT
It is genuinely one of the few great parts of the (otherwise frustrating and shallow) movie.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2017 6:11:13 GMT
The movie was really good.
I loved it.
Uh...
Okay.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2017 10:46:39 GMT
Well at least someone enjoyed it. What did you like about it?
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2017 11:27:38 GMT
I liked a lot of the characters and some of the development there, but one of my favourite things was the deconstruction of certain tropes and expectations. It went in a different direction.
It took tropes and such that people expected and twisted them. I loved that the crazy Leeeeeerooooy Jeeeeeennkiiiinsss shit didn't work. In fact, it made their situation worse. Sometimes mutiny and going behind your commander's back is a bad thing. Who would have thought? I loved that Luke was broken and different. The idea that they weren't keen on Luke going on in there and murdering baddies with a laser sword, like many expected, was nice.
And I really did love what happened with and to Snoke, and then how things didn't work out after. Sometimes that kind of thing happens. It felt good. Sure, you didn't get answers to all the questions, but sometimes that just doesn't happen realistically. You thought you were owed answers? Well... subverted. No you aren't. I'm sure answers will come eventually, but that's the nature of things sometimes. That moment just felt so good. The last time I noticed the climax of a movie so clearly was Guardians of the Galaxy 2, "you killed my mom" boogaloo.
Also, if Kylo Ren isn't lying about Rey's parents (and he may be of course), I actually like the idea that she isn't the child of some super powerful bloodline of doom... just some nobody. If they change that, I'll be disappointed unless they do it well. Though Kylo really did try that abusive boyfriend shit on her and it was interesting to see that... "You're nobody, but not to me" oh really boyo? That was part of the climax I was talking about above too, of course.
I am also semi-satisfied with everyone taking a dump on the annoying culty space Buddhists. Fuck the Jedi. It was nice to hear about harmony rather than what came before, ie: "I am emotionless robot, beep boop, attachments are bad." And "WAAAAH I'M A SITH WAAAAAH! TEMPER TANTRUM POOOOOWER!"
Also the humour could be fun.
Luke Skytroller was great at the end too. Something about that just felt right.
Most of the fights were good, though I feel as if I liked the lightsaber fight in The Force Awakens more. There was nothing really wrong with these, but... eh.
However, what I didn't like was the surprise sudden romance. Le sigh. I mean, I guess if you figure you're dying anyway and you've got a bit of a crush on someone... sure? I worry that this next movie is just going to be love triangles, love triangles everywhere. Finn, Rose, Rey, Kylo, Poe??
I didn't really mind the Rinn/Rose arc either, but I wasn't super keen on it either. If you wanted to go get some water during the film, that was when to do it.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 21, 2017 14:48:48 GMT
Thanks, Can, for helping me understand, in a way. So it does seem to boil down to the elusive "freshness". I dunno, I kind of can't unsee the things you mention (and that I've heard) as cheap twists for the sake of twists. The last time I was impressed by "subversion", I was watching Shrek for the first time. You thought you were owed answers? Well... subverted. No you aren't. But this is a weak ass argument. No, you aren't owed answers. Neither you're owed good writing or character development. It doesn't mean that it doesn't make the story shitty. I guess it also depends on how much you trust the writers. Which for me is "not at all" Force Awakens was janky already, with only a few good scenes, and there doesn't seem to be any improvement in Last Jedi. I'm sure the answers will never come. It's easier for the marketing department to make it uncool for people to care about them, and problem solved. I am also semi-satisfied with everyone taking a dump on the annoying culty space Buddhists. Fuck the Jedi. Really? This was actually the least subversive twist there could be. So you mean, black and white thinking is actually bad and reality is grey and complicated? Whoa there, next you'll be telling me that girls can be as good as boys! KotOR 2 did this way better without any "grey" platitudes. It's hard to go back.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2017 21:00:30 GMT
Yeah to me it came across less like clever subversions and more like the film directer had no interest in what Force Awakens set up and so swept it all aside. They did that for pretty much EVERYTHING. Luke, Snoke, Rey's parents, every question was answered with a shrug.
The big problem is with all these un-reveal twists is that nothing new replaced them. There weren't new concepts and ideas, or new mysteries. The answers was "nope, nothing to see here" and that was it. It kinda felt like the curtain was pulled back and there was nothing behind it.
I read one hillarious review that said this movie was great because it blazed its own trail rather than just aping Empire Strikes back. This viewer clearly stopped watching before the last twenty minutes.
Also Rey's parents being poor junk traders makes no sense as she had flash backs to her parents leaving in a space ship in part one. Also why did Kylo turning evil not happen in the rain or feature the other knights of Ren this time? Im not sure the director paid that much attention to force awakens before making this.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2017 22:04:15 GMT
Cheap twists? Maybe in some ways, but I think there is enough foundation there for it to work. Take what happened to Snoke. Snoke tries to be Emperor mark 2, manipulates both Kylo and Rey. However, by doing this manipulation he forgets that he just got two people to have some kind of emotional and mental connection. They kinda like each other. And the vision of the future he allegedly gave Kylo Ren involved Rey turning to the Dark Side, not Kylo Ren killing her. So when he realized that was what Snoke had planned, Kylo Ren decided that he'd had enough of this Dark side/Light side bullshit dichotomy and was going to do his own thing.
They built up that emotional connection throughout the early part of the film too. They didn't just rely on it being similar to what happened in RotJ. Though it also makes sense that Snoke would have tried to make things seem similar to what happened in RotJ as well... at least at first. He just overstepped.
Further, in real life, sometimes you don't get answers. So when I say that was subverted it was subverted into something that made sense.
And yeah, the Jedi being shits wasn't something that was a subversion, it was something that was a long time coming. Still felt really good.
Lets look at Rey's parents. Does it not replace it with something? The idea that heroes can come from nothing rather than be from some kind of bloodline? Makes sense to me.
Also, Kylo Ren's murder of the Jedi Temple wasn't covered in TLJ because Luke didn't see it. It also wasn't the turning point, it was the result of that turning point. I found what we got a lot more interesting than watching Youngling Murder 2.0.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 21, 2017 22:44:39 GMT
Further, in real life, sometimes you don't get answers. So when I say that was subverted it was subverted into something that made sense. Yeah… but real life would also make a very shitty story most of the time. And again, you can justify pretty much anything with "well, in real life people do X sometimes". Hey, Can, remember where this whole conversation between us started? By that I mean SAO Abridged. Remember that scene from the ending? I find this oddly pertinent. Expect that part about Metacritic. OR IS IT? Think about what Disney did because of low Metacritic user score (or maybe it was Rotten Tomatoes). But anyway, maybe I'm not crazy and that's how people usually think about this kind of things. (Cause the joke is that the original SAO gave exactly the response that is parodied; the author just didn't give a shit, he wanted to write mindless flashy sword fights, maybe with a tinge of underage sex - but that's a story for another time, whoops!) And also, because I'm starting to feel bad for the Jedi, let's remember some positive moments with the knightly order!
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