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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2017 23:39:19 GMT
So evil emperor guy on a throne with red armoured guards tries to manipulate people but it backfires and his own apprentice kills him instead? Wow, really breaking new ground with this shit, aren't they?
Okay if the argument is that sometimes we dont get an explanation in real life so we shouldnt in movies, I dunno what to tell you. Most of the time in real life we go to work and eat food and do boring shit. I sort of thought this was a movie, like a space adventure movie, full of larger than life characters having adventures and battles? Its not like what happened was actual realistic or like real life, it was still completely silly. It just made the set up in the previous film seem pointless. If you are saying you like it becuase it seemed realistic then thats such a differnet want of looking at it that its hard for me to relate to, let along discuss. Have one of the characters stub their toe and have to sit the next movie out becuase its broken. I mean thats realistic. Why didn't they have him have a heart attack? Thats a much more common killer than being stabbed. That would be so realistic! See what I mean? Its just a wierd way to look at it. As if one crazy space thing is more realistic somehow than another.
Also Snokes death was sign posted to an almost wierd extent. He was going "you will use your light saber" *the one next to him moves* "kill your REAL enemy" *camera zooms in on wigging light saber* "and kill the main bad guy!" It was wierd that they made such a point of telling us what was goign to happen before it did. an the way Snoke was talking, using strange terms like "your true enemy" to set up that he didnt realise he was talking about himself. That wasnt realistic at all. Real people dont talk or think like that. Kylo would have thought "I want to kill Snoke, hes an asshole" and Snoke would have gone "shit hes going to kill me!"
The idea that jedi are boring and shit is based on teh prequels. In the original trilogy they were all really cool. They weren't unemotional space budhists who tolerate slavery.
Oh yeah, the new republic is also okay with slavery. That casino planet had been around for ages, sold weapns to both sides nad has slaves. Clearly the new reupiblic is as bad as the old one.
I support the First Order. The republic supports slavery and terroristS (They had the resistance attackign teh first order for them before the first order attackerd). Mayeb the First ORder will stop the slavery? I dunno, lets give em a try see how it goes. Cant be worse than another shitty republic.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 22, 2017 1:14:42 GMT
Also Snokes death was sign posted to an almost wierd extent. He was going "you will use your light saber" *the one next to him moves* "kill your REAL enemy" *camera zooms in on wigging light saber* "and kill the main bad guy!" This is so blatant that the audience probably expected something else to happen. Everyone would think "Well, he's obviously not going to kill him, that's too obvious." What a tweeist! He does! It's like a subversion of a subversion inside of a subversion with subversion filling and a side of subversion. Everything about these movies is wrong and it pisses me off. Right off the bat "Awakens" starts off wrong. Practically the first line in the crawl is wrong. What really pisses me off is that there was potential to do something new with these ideas, (I mean, they threw away the extended universe for christsake!) and they just did a safe reboot of A New Hope and a mash up mess of Empire as written by someone who hates Star Wars.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2017 1:34:01 GMT
I like this summation of it. And the thing is, all this subverting is to no real end. It does't really make a point beyodn "ha you didnt think that owuld happen, huh?" It feels like waking up on Christmas and opening your presents and they are all empty. I mean yeah, its surprising, but in more of a "oh you didn't bother, this is shit" way. Im not thinking "ah what a clever subversion of christmas times expectations! just doing jeck shit! Who would have guessed?"
Considering they fail to make Snoke at all interesting, then kill him off, it feels less like they are messing wiht my expectations and more like the new director did not know what to do with JJ's set up so made the guy fairly generic and then killed him off.
I mean if yu just want endless random twists I can write a sotry like that. Theres a hero, but then he dies, and theres a new hero, but hes actually a villian, but acutally not becuase hes undercover, but hes really someone else who was in ddisguise etc etc Just putting in twists like that doesn't make the story more interesting, It just makes everything feel pointless and the audience stop trying to predict what will happen because its all meaningless.
You wont get fan theories and speculation about the next one liek you did this one, since its been made clear that the film makers are making it up as they go along and wont answer the questions they raise.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2017 1:37:45 GMT
I was going to use a Weird Britannia plot twist as an exmaple of a good plot twist (becuase Its my forum and I ma allowed to toot my own horn) but then I realised I dont think everyone here has read it. But I will just say it has a few good plot twists, which are set up and pay off to advance the story in interesting ways, which I would hold up as an example of how to do stuff like this in a better way. And yeah I think the rpgs I play with my friends are better written than this star wars film. and thats not becuase i think I write anything great, thats because thats how bad I think this film is.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 22, 2017 2:15:33 GMT
I was going to use a Weird Britannia plot twist as an exmaple of a good plot twist (becuase Its my forum and I ma allowed to toot my own horn) but then I realised I dont think everyone here has read it. Is that a hint? I actually read a book from cover to cover last month. First time in at least ten years. I deeply regretted it.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2017 2:29:11 GMT
Well its my forum, I think if there is any place where I can plug things that appear on my forum, it would be here. Yeah go to the roleplay section and read the Weird Britannia bit. You can see how strange the roleplaying games I play are.
Honestly, its pretty good, you will like it.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 22, 2017 2:38:31 GMT
If I don't do I get my money back?
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2017 3:43:18 GMT
I will refund your harko points. Some reaction from people who read it include disbelief that the player characters were actual people and not NPCs based on the behaviour of the characters. People struggled to believe players would make such choices.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 22, 2017 4:46:17 GMT
Well, my thought with Snoke getting, ahem, MAULED, was... "oh my god, is he going to... he is... is it going to work? Tell me it is going to... FUCKING HELL YES!"
And the mirroring of RoTJ was intentional because suddenly everything wasn't fixed in the end. Kylo and Rey went in different directions that put them at odds. Sometimes you don't get a happy ending with "haha, the baddy is dead, whew, problem solved."
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 22, 2017 6:18:09 GMT
Anyone else see what Mark Hamill looked like right after the premier?
This has become a bit of a meme.
He looks like someone just shot his dog after his doctor told him: "I'm sorry, but you only have two weeks to live. Oh, and by the way... I'm sleeping with your wife."
Snoke being basically of no importance really didn't bother me at all. The first movie didn't make much of a deal about him. I always figured he was the place holder for the real villain anyway. I didn't really give a crap about him and figured he wouldn't make it through the second movie anyway. It was the internet that tried to make a big deal about him. "Is he Darth Plagueis? Is he Sidious reincarnated? Is he Luke's dark side that split off from him?"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 6:21:23 GMT
The only real narratively subversive stuff the movie actually carried out in my opinion was a) Luke failed to be a jedi master b) Rey's parent's were nobodies. I liked the first but the way the movie ends renders it irrelevant, instead of moving beyond the idea of special gatekeepers of knowledge (Luke and the Jedi order's great sins were hubris and vanity, the belief they could monopolize the force) the system is ultimately perpetuated by Luke anyway. Now Rey is a Jedi in the mold of the Skywalkers, and there will be more Jedi in the future. The sacred Jedi texts aren't destroyed, but saved and safe and snug on-board the falcon. Ultimately the movie's conservatism (both political and narrative) shines through in the end.
The 2nd one, well, chosen one stories where people are heroes or imbued with special abilities through the accident of birth are reactionary. Star Wars is a deeply conservative series so the use of chosen ones for the titular heroes of the trilogies is not really a surprise. Rey being an ordinary person then is actually kind of cool and I think actually too subversive for the series, and instead it will be retconned away by saying that Kylo Ren was lying or clouding Rey's mind to the truth in the next movie (the director has said this wasn't his intent, but that doesn't really matter given he's not writing or directing the next movie). Of the stuff people hate this seems to be the one that really stuck in people's craw is a really visceral way, leaving the movies a guy behind me complained to his friends that he hoped Kylo Ren was lying because otherwise it makes Rey a shitty character -- his friends seemed to agree. There is probably something to be said here about reactionary or even quasi-fascist beliefs that are created/reinforced in American popular culture but that's an entirely different discussion I guess.
Anyway my other issue with the film was that it takes the best part of the force awakens (Rey and Finn's on screen chemistry) and forces the best pairing in the movie to be totally separate from each other for nearly 3 hours. Imagine how boring Empire would have been if Han and Leia were never on screen together, sheesh.
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Post by wordweaver3 on Dec 22, 2017 6:49:16 GMT
There's another thing that didn't bother me at all. Rey's parent's were nobodies. So what? This fits with how The Force was presented to us in A New Hope. Obi-wan states simply to Luke: "You will learn to use the force and become a Jedi." As if anybody could do it. He didn't say: "Let's check yer midiclorian count here... Whoa! Over 9000!" The fact that anyone could manipulate the force with proper training is reinforced in Empire. Yoda says: "The force is all around us." It's in everything and around everything and everyone. He even implies it's what makes life possible. When Luke fails to pull the X-Wing out of the swamp and Yoda does it for him. Luke says: "I can't believe it!" and Yoda replies: "That is why you fail." This means that Luke's mindset is the only thing preventing him from doing it as well. If it were anything else than the test would have been a pointlessly impossible task.
Now that's not to say that anybody can become Darth Vader. Anyone can toss a baseball around but only a select few will ever be professional level pitchers regardless of a persons willingness to train.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 22, 2017 8:06:58 GMT
Also, Admiral Ackbar wasn't killed off screen. He was on the bridge that got missiled. He got sucked into space and died. We saw it happen.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 22, 2017 8:24:34 GMT
Hmm. I'm curious.
How many of you have seen the original Star Wars films (at least one of them) in theatres? For me, no, I saw the VHS copies of the originals.
How many consider yourselves hardcore Star Wars fans (or are considered such)? Not really.
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Post by RED_NED on Dec 22, 2017 9:10:27 GMT
I think a big problem people have with The Last Jedi stems from how bad the Force Awakens actually is. It is the worst thing to happen to the star wars franchise and basically ruined everything as Plinkett would say. The prequels were shit and are pretty much hated, but if you don't like them then you have loads of other star wars stuff to like, and the prequels are pretty self contained and don't really affect anything.
Farce Awakens destroyed all the expanded universe stuff and wheels out the old characters as failures then kills them off and renders the original films pointless. Its disrespectful to the actors, the fans and the original films. It also basically resets everything and is so lazy that we ended up with everything almost the way it was.
Seriously the amount of things the film copies is embarassing. BB-8 is basically just R2-D2, Rey is an orphan on a desert planet who wants to learn about the force, gets on the Millenium Falcon with an older mentor who dies while confronting the not-vader after deactivating a device on the not-deathstar, gets given an ancestral lightsaber, its all just so tired. The overarching tone and plot is the same with big evil empire destroying planets, using storm troopers and tie fighters to hunt a rebellion lead by leia who use x-wings.
They killed the originals and wore it's skin and people felt like they were back with the star wars they know and love. This meant that when The Last Jedi started subverting all this and making people feel like idiots for getting invested they realised that it was all a mask and not the star wars they thought it was. They set it all up to be business as usual then pulled the rug from under people. As a standalone film then fair enough, but people actually like the universe and characters so retconning it all and making it all come to nothing is like a slap in the face.
The original film was for kids. The force was just a direct be good, don't have negative emotions moral tale (as you grow up you understand the nuances but saying "don't be angy and hateful" is a good message for kids). Luke wasn't a powerful jedi just because his dad was. He was eager to learn and understand and was optimistic, that's why Obi-Wan mentored him and later Yoda did. Yoda, Obi-Wan and Vader weren't powerful cos of their family tree. Lando, Han and Chewie didn't ride their parents coat tails, it was about heroes being heroes and fighting the bad men.
Arse Awakens made it so Kylo was related to all of the main characters, because luke was vaders son, so we have to make them related. They showed that they were just retreading old, tired ground so when they set up Rey has mysterious parents and used obi-wan's voice in a flashback it kind of suggested she was important. Maybe obi wan is just a pervert and tries it on with young chicks randomly.
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