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Post by Harkovast on Feb 9, 2015 22:54:47 GMT
Tempest again I go back to the point that in order to make charm not over powered you've had to make it so limited as to be virtually useless. Mind control is simply too powerful an ability. The only way to make it not over powered is to nerf it to the point it becomes utterly useless.
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Post by frostwolf on Feb 10, 2015 1:38:55 GMT
Tempest again I go back to the point that in order to make charm not over powered you've had to make it so limited as to be virtually useless. Mind control is simply too powerful an ability. The only way to make it not over powered is to nerf it to the point it becomes utterly useless. Mind explaining your reasoning there Hark?
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 10, 2015 1:44:56 GMT
There was a bit of a back and forth in the Shadowrun thread that might explain both points. If you missed it, which you mightn't have, now that I think about it."
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Post by frostwolf on Feb 10, 2015 2:02:56 GMT
I never got around to reading it no.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 10, 2015 2:57:58 GMT
Normally when you fight bad guys you try to do them damage till they keel over. That's what warriors, rogues and other chums have to do all day. Wizards can use mind control to bypass all that bullshit. Mind control someone and they are out of the fight. Two giants attacking? Zap! The wizard juts halved the odds for ya. But it gets worse, because not only does it remove an enemy, it creates an ally. It turns two giants attacking you into two giants bonking each other on the head while you take pot shots and then gang up on the winner.
It also solves out of combat problems. Not sure whats going on with the mystery plot? Mind control people into telling you the truth till you get the answers. Worried about traps? Mind control one bad guy to draw a map for you. The list goes on.
The only way to get round this is to do what Tempest Fennec is doing- putting so many limits on the mind control that it basically becomes useless. Tempest got to the point of arguing that charmed spells shouldn't be able to convince one of the bad guys to leave the room for five minutes! Mind control was getting reduced to the same power of persuasion as asking nicely.
And that proves my point. The only way to balance such powers is to limit them to the point of them being totally impractical and worthless.
If the bad guys can't even trust their own minds and opinions, how can they possibly stand a chance? This is why you never get these kinds of powers for player characters in Harkovast.
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Post by zaealix on Feb 10, 2015 3:43:08 GMT
Hrrm...On that note! For Harkovast, I got an idea looking through that Matrix Reloaded review you were doing... Basically, you remember the scene where Neo is talking to the old guy and there were a bunch of Neos on screens that reacted to what the old guy said or something? I was thinking-that might kinda work as a lower-tier of mind-game shenanigans, if done right. The idea was utilizing those 'screen reactions' or something like that (puppets maybe? voice crystal thingies? Whispering wall-style architecture?) but the reactions are important for the interrogator. I don't trust my ability to explain it so lemme grab some RP characters and use them for an example... Konrad will be our interrogator (being Observant is a good trait for interrogateors/seems in-character for Konrad to do, not so much to his friend but this is a demonstration.), let's make Marcus the victim ( he seems calm enough for me to pull a nice hidden spectrum from. Alex COULD work, but I dunno if I can get into her headspace as easily.) And...5 'screens' *scene opens* Konrad: Alright, let's make this simple. Recently I've recieved reports from my men of Ivos slavers trying to sell to the Golta. Your thoughts? Marcus: I have no idea what you're talking about. Marcus1:Say what!? Marcus2:Bah, this guy's barking up the wrong tree. Marcus3:I don't know anything. Marcus4:Don't look at me! Marcus5:So why are you asking me? Konrad: Why you? Maybe because those slavers all claimed to be working for House Galii, Your house. Marcus:Well, I can say that I am not involved in this matter. Marcus1:House Galii? Is someone trying to frame me? Marcus2:Oh brother, just what are you up to now? Marcus3:Not again Proculus! Marcus4:I should have known... Marcus5:That does it, if I get half the chance... Konrad:Sounds like you're as invested in finding this guy as I am. Let's go get ready to move out... *end scene* Aaand that's a practical demonstration of how it works. I figured this could be a thing the Tolpish do, if anyone, but it's effectively a mind-magic trick. Oh, and Canovea& Renard, my apologizes if I mishandled them...I probably should remember to ask first in the first place...
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Post by Canuovea on Feb 10, 2015 3:49:21 GMT
I didn't mind. "Not again Proculus!" Would be about right.
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Post by TempestFennac on Feb 10, 2015 6:03:45 GMT
So the fact that you actually need to be careful with how you use Charm rather than casting it and making people do what you want makes it useless? Like I said, I'm only looking at the limits the spell itself lists rather than making up ways to nerf it. You've also still not explained how to get around the issue of people getting a save bonus if the person casting the spell is seen as hostile. And my specific argument about using it to make people leave the room was concerned with the fact that it seems implausible that people would if their actual friends were still fighting the person who charmed them.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 10, 2015 17:44:37 GMT
The spell descriptions are incredibly vague. Charm just says the person considers you to be a good friend. What would a good friend do for another friend? Would they fight to defend them? Put themselves at risk to help them? Would they kill someone they don't know very well in order to help their best friend? Your guess is as good as mine. It's all completely up in the air. Tempest you are interpreting a vague set of instructions in a way that makes the spell very weak (I cant get the guy I charmed to stand outside for a few minutes because he doesn't trust me not to murder his other friends while he's gone.) One could easily interpret the spell differently, because the actual guidelines are barely guidelines at all. What would an orc do for his "best friend"? I have no idea. Maybe orcs are dicks to their best friends and wont do anything? That's as valid an interpretation as any other. Don't confuse your interpretation with some kind of objective truth, because the rules do not explain it in enough detail to say with certainty what the spells results will be till the GM makes a decision.
And yes, the way you define it, it does sound useless. You've interpreted it to the point where I cant even charm enemies to perform none violent, mundane tasks for me. There is a whole list of spells, and I only get so many slots, I wouldn't waste my time on something that I have to fuck around with where the GM might give out extra saving throws if he decides the creature I charmed still doesn't trust me, or likes his real friends more than me etc. I had never considered a charm spell might fail because when I ask something the monster will be suspicious that I am trying to trick it. I kinda assumed the point of charm was to make them NOT suspicious I am tricking them. Right now I am not even sure what the spell is doing to help the situation. If Charm is that unreliable and situational I will just take sleep and knock the fuckers out. You've reduced charm to being as effective as asking politely. Sometimes the monster will do what I want, unless they decide they dont feel like it, don't trust me or like someone else more. Other than that they ALSO get a saving throw, that's the same as just asking. SO slightly worse than asking nicely. Totally useless, or at least so laughably weak I would rather take something useful in that spell slot instead.
If you want to see how badly written the spell descriptions are, look at suggestion. (It might have changed in later editions, I'd only played up to 3.5.) Suggestion says you can't order them to do suicidal things or tell them to hurt themselves etc. However, it gives as an example, telling someone a pool of acid is a nice warm bath they should go and have a soak in as a valid way to use the spell. So basically, by their own definition, suggestion lets me make people do anything. I can convince the guy there is an invisible bridge over the chasm and he needs to run across it, or his friends are enemies in disguise and he should stab them all etc. Consider other third level spells, like fireball and lightning bolt that just do some damage. Only a moron would waste time attacking an enemies hit point when he can suggestion them into to actively murdering themselves or others. Again, that's based on the EXAMPLE use of the spell that the book gives. How about the suggestion "you are dying of deadly poison and your sword is the only cure. It must be taken as suppository."? At third level I can make any bad guy I want make a save or shove their sword up their arse.
Breaking the DnD rules doesn't even require breaking a sweat.
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Post by TempestFennac on Feb 10, 2015 18:38:12 GMT
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 10, 2015 19:21:57 GMT
Offer limited help would seem to extend to "go and stand outside for a bit, that would really help right now." Or maybe "Please start advocating to your friends that they stop attacking me."
Either way, that's one monster neutralised without bothering with all that pesky armour class and hitpoint nonsense. Only loser classes bother to attack hit points directly.
Keep in mind, charm is a first level spell.
Even if we assume I can't trick a monster into hurting itself with suggestion, I can still do "Kill all your friends, please" and watch the monsters kill each other while watch.
Kinda makes throwing a fireball to knock a few hit points off them seem kinda lame by comparisson, doesn't it? Monsters fight at full efficiency until they die due to how the rules work. Instantly removing one has an effect on how much harm they can cause us, lowering the hit points on several of them does not unless it actually kills them. Making them change sides actually makes our damage potential (and toughness, as we now have a meat shield) go up. Wizards should focus on mind control because it breaks the game and makes you win. Again, fireball and suggestion are the same level. Fireball does not make you win by breaking DnD...suggestion does.
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Post by TempestFennac on Feb 10, 2015 19:30:06 GMT
With that example, I know what you mean about Suggestion being better than I thought based on the SRD. Trying to get the enemy to talk their actual friends into stopping the fight does certainly seem to be something the spell can do with even harsh interpretations of it. The only problem is if you have a DM who likes to throw non-Humanoids at you until you get Charm Monster.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 10, 2015 20:14:06 GMT
There are ways around it (like none humanoids, enemies that speak a secret language the players don't know, mindless robot minions etc) but the fact you have to take special steps for the bad guys to counter this tactic shows how great it is. The bad guys don't need special features to beat fireball or swinging swords. Mind control requires the GM to plan in advance how to stop it from winning every battle.
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Post by tiberia on Feb 10, 2015 21:23:44 GMT
Charm person is probably the wrong spell to be focusing on here. all it does is make them "friendly" to you. it's an attitude change, nothing else. Hark, what you really should be focusing on is "dominate X" which IS mind control
On "monster refusing to leave room for five minutes" if a monster wouldn't leave the room on the request of a friend then charm will not make them do it. It's like how I handle alot of social stuff in eclipse phase. from my last game Poilice have a building surrounded which has one of the party members and their target inside My player lies and says they are oversight (hypercorp FBI). They succeed, but this is not enough to get them past the police line into the besieged building. Just because the cops believe you when you say you are oversight, does not mean they will let someone into a building they are currently about to raid. There is procedure. There is safety concerns. There is duty. There is pissing contests over jurisdiction. They DID succeed on the intimidate check to convince the sergeant to let them past. and with that they got in.
So you charm the orc and ask him to leave for five minutes. it is completely reasonable to then have the orc say "No, I have to guard this room as it is my job". next make a diplomacy check to convince them to leave.
If I came to your workplace and said "hark, could you leave for five minutes." Barring stuff like lunch breaks, and bathroom breaks and such you would be perfectly right to say "No I have to work.". And If you're a security guard you definately aren't moving just because someone you like asked you to. Especially if said friendly person is accompanied by a bunch of people in ski masks. You might be convinced after some talking, but a simple request won't fly.
Cast mid-combat? that one orc won't go after the wizard, but he will still try to kill rest of party. ask him to leave? "Bitch you crazy, there's a paladin here!" Ask him to not kill your friends? "But I really hate them, and they are trying to kill me."
2 giants attack. charm one. 2 giants are still attacking. Wizard is safe from one of them however. Ask that giant to attack his friend. "No. He is my friend". In this scenario your wizard just used the wrong spell, or lacked planning. Time and Place.
And remember its only a level 1 spell Charm person and monster is still a very useful tool that when combined with diplomacy can work wonders, can help with social encounters, etc..., it just isn't a mind control spell in the full sense. it's an attitude adjustment. It's not underpowered, it's just not used how you think. It's not overpowered, because the people you use it on aren't flat pieces of cardboard.
mind control is a bad mechanic for the most part, but Charm person is not one of them because it is not really mind control.
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Post by Harkovast on Feb 10, 2015 22:09:43 GMT
Alright, charm itself is pretty nerfed. But suggestion, dominate and whole host of other bullshit tactics totally over balance things.
I might get the specifics wrong (I haven't played any recent eddition and it was months ago I last played at all!) but I stand by my anti mind control principle.
This is why only The Speaker gets this power in Harkovast! The Speaker is totally unfair.
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