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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2019 19:29:32 GMT
I fucking hate Mandalorians. They were kinda cool with the neat armour previously, sure, but they were built up to be Spartan Asshats and I hate those. I loved what The Clone Wars did by turning most of the people living on Mandalore into peaceniks. Take that, you stupid fucking Oooh Rah fanboy motherfuckers.
...
Okay, that's a bit harsh, but it does get tiresome.
That being said, here... let me come up with something that could have followed Rian Johnson's movie.
Rey is either a nobody or a clone or some shit. That's cool and fine. I actually much prefer this to her just being Sheev's, what, granddaughter? Not sure its true, but that's what I've heard. Still, even that could be something interesting if done well. Makes Reylo a bit creepier though, since technically Anakin is kinda Sheev's kiddo.
But what we do have is a potential schism in the First Order, a New Kylo in charge, and the good guys on the back foot.
So lets do something a bit different than Episode 6, shall we?
Snoke was an unknown, but he came out of almost nowhere with massive amounts of dark side power. He may also have never revealed to Kylo just where he got that power. Now we've got talk of a great nexus of Dark Side power somewhere far far in the Unknown Region. Palpy sensed it when he was alive, and that's why Jakku was used as a base in the first place. He wanted to find it. But hey, remember, Palpy is fucking dead now. Gone. Dunzo. Khattam-Shud. Anakin did him what for. And yes, this was all canon already.
Kylo, however, knows about it. And rather than attempt to simply grab political power, Kylo realizes that, with Rey turned against him, he needs that power. He wants to go after that. Not because of grandpappy or that Palpy or Snoke would have wanted it, because Kylo doesn't care about that shit and the past anymore, but because he feels his authority in the First Order slipping after Snoke's death and because he's afraid of what Rey might become (consider all the crap Snoke talked up about her being some kind of Force based reaction to the Dark Side). Maybe the more he tightens his grip, the more star systems slip through his fingers because Luke's legend undermines him wherever he goes. Maybe he's actually risking losing. But the Unknown Regions are, well, unknown because they're very hard to navigate for a variety of reasons to do with space phenomena. So off Kylo goes.
Rey, and a rag tag bunch of friends and allies, head off to try and destroy the thing before Kylo can get it. Maybe someone is secretly a double agent? I dunno, could do it.
This also allows for an investigation of Snoke's origins. What he is, where he comes from, since he would have been the first to find the place. Maybe it isn't just a place, either. Maybe it's a thing...
Also, perhaps the rebels are able to incite a revolt amongst the First Order, and Hux and Kylo's forces have it out.
That's a pretty solid basis for something.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2019 20:08:00 GMT
But that plot sounds like the plot to rise of skywalker.
You just find and replace the words "evil emperor" with "darkside power"
You even have Hux going against Kylo.
Kylo goes to the unknown regions to seek out an evil power that was behind snoke/Kylo goes to the unknown regions to seek out evil emperor who was behind snoke.
I know it being the Emperor was embarassing and awful, but just making it something vague is still not very engaging.
Hot take-
There is a key speific moment where Force Awakens fucks up and ruins its future potential, and a key moment last jedi does the same.
I'm not talking about the worst bits of the films. Luke chugging green milk and flying leia were bad, but they didn't breka the franchise.
Here is where the films did the most long term damage (in my view)-
Force Awakens- Fin murdering other storm troopers.
A trooper turned hero was the ONE original interesting idea JJ had. And he fucked it up! A trooper who doesn't want to kill poeple any more is awesome. Imagine the conflict! Imagine his confusion when the outside world doesn't believe all the weird propaganda he was taught ("But Han-Solo was an evil triator who murdered children and attacked the good empire! Everyone knows that!") Imagine his futile struggle to persuade his former friends that they are being used as cannon fodder? Wouldn't that be great? But instead Finn just slaughters them and thinks nothing of it. Seeing one of them throw his life away is what makes him doubt the first order, but he is willing ot kill dozens of them and think nothing of it. This makes it feel like Finn is a horrible monster. What happens if he decides the resistance isn't so hot? Will he just up and murder his new friends like he did his old ones? The bests potential plot arc was flushed away immediately. I care about the struggles of a former trooper more than Rey and her quest to became an even more wonderful and perfect person than she already is.
Last Jedi- Rey rejecting Kylo's offer.
Last jedi promised subversion but mostly just offered "ah you see you thought it menat something but it meant nothing! haha! got you!" The one real subversion that was interesting was Kylo declaring the conflict pointless and suggesting a third way. Rather than Kylo turning good, him and Rey sort of form some new faction. that is at least interesting and different. But Rey says no because she is good and Kylo is bad and the two sides just go back ot fighting each other. Kylo goes from wanting to dismantle the first order ot wanting to lead it and crush all rebels in the space of about a minute. If the film had ended with Rey taking Kylo's hand , imagine how much better that woudl have been? Like holy crap, what would happen next? Those two joining forces? I dunno what that would have made the third movie look like, but it would have given us at least something to grab onto. Instead its just a snese of "well I guess the two sides will have to fight some more."
I'm not sure the Rise of Skywalker will have even a hint of anything that could have been interesting. From what I hear it barely even sounds like a movie.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2019 20:15:45 GMT
I dunno, I've not seen Rise of Skywalker yet.
But under no circumstances should Palpatine be involved or alive.
I personally like the idea of the villains being chased down rather than the heroes being chased down, and revealing a mystery. Snoke's mystery. Let Kylo be a villain.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2019 20:28:21 GMT
Some of the best star wars stuff, is the character stuff.
Return of the jedi has its problems, but its the character stuff that is great.
the space battles, while cool, are not as dramtic as in the first star wars. But Luke facing Vader and the Emperor is awesome.
Note that both of my points where I think the story went wrong arne't based on "this shot looked silly" or "this goes against the lore". Not that those things don't matter, but the most important thing has to be interesting character stuff. I want some kind of deeper meaning and conflict, not just a light show.
I just had the thought. JJ is throwing out Rians stuff that was hard to work with...but Rian kinda did the asme thing with JJ's shitty mystery boxes. Snoke seemed like a boring generic emperor knock off (cause he was). Rians mistake was rather than try to make him work was to kinda shrug and go "yeah I guess he is pretty lame, hes not important, lets kill him." the same for Rey's parents. Important parents in Star Wars is just repeating old plot beats but then just going "actually no its not importnat" is unsatisfying. Now the new one features JJ pulling the same stuff. having just ten rebels is hard to work with. Meh, just have them be thousands of them again. Killed off the main villain so you only have none threatening idiot kylo as the baddie? Meh just bring back the Emperor.
Even if the last movie is bad, it is what it is! You can't just shit on it and expect that to go over well!
They dont make an effort to make the crappy stuff work, they just try to chuck it all out whcih leaves the audience confused what htey are even supposed to care about.
I have no opinion on Mandalorians themselves. Just boba fetts, whats the big deal? But the show seems fun and people love that baby Yoda.
Bringing back Palpatine is so obviously bad I don't evne when to go over it. I feel like I'd be patronising you guys to explain it. The one thing I will say is it shines a spot light on the fact this franchise has no plan. If anyone believes the Emperor was intended to come back in force awakens, I want to talk to them about investing in this bridge i own in Brooklyn. Its an asspull of the worst kind. There are masses of other reasons its an awful idea, but that one seems the most far reaching. There is nothing I like about that concept.
Also sorry if I spoil anything from the new film. I'm assuming people who come on a thread to watch me rant about Disney star wars either saw the film or don't care cause they know its gonna be shit. There are no brakes on the hate train.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 21, 2019 22:04:35 GMT
Just tell me this...
Does it reveal that Snoke was actually some kind of clone the Emperor was puppeting the whole time?
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2019 22:20:08 GMT
Yes, yes it does.
He has two more Snokes in a tank floating. They have the same head wounds cause he makes em that way I guess? Why the Emperor uses cloned snokes rather than just going "I am still alive, I'm still emperor, everyone do what I say" the film never said. It just declares that he made and controlled Snoke and gives no further explanation. In the same way the emperor is still alive and just is. No explanation given.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 21, 2019 22:21:55 GMT
I haven't seen any of this shit yet, but Ive read the plot nad watched people responding to it. good times!
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Post by StyxD on Dec 21, 2019 23:16:27 GMT
I fucking hate Mandalorians. They were kinda cool with the neat armour previously, sure, but they were built up to be Spartan Asshats and I hate those. I loved what The Clone Wars did by turning most of the people living on Mandalore into peaceniks. Take that, you stupid fucking Oooh Rah fanboy motherfuckers. Damn right! I hated Mandalorians as well, and I didn't even know what they were and that I hated them before playing KotOR. Then, in KotOR 2 you're playing as the guy (or gal) who tricked an entire invading Mandalorian fleet using their stupid superstitions and basically blew them all to hell and ended a war. And at the end of the game, Kreia delivers a prophecy that's one hell of a Mandalorian diss. So I guess Chris Avellone wasn't a fan either. One of the reasons I love this game so much. Anyway, I have to say, Snoke being an Emperor clone makes probably the most sense with what little we do know of him, and what he does, but it's a very shitty story thread. Also, I would think Snoke's deformity comes from the Dark Side corrupting a weak cloned body, but I guess they didn't even think of that? Some people say that it's also a plot hole that the Emperor got those Death Star class destroyers out of freaking nowhere, but I disagree. It was very well foreshadowed that Palpatine could do something like this: You know, I also wanna play the "conceptualize Episode IX better than JJ ever cared for". Partly because Can's idea isn't really satisfying to me (sorry, Can ). What I'd do is try to built on all the chaos that TLJ left. Yes, it cut short all the threads from Force Awakens, but to be fair, they were all really lame. So what the hell. The Resistance is now ten people. But the First Order also collapses without Snoke. Because a little snot with a bad temper like Kylo certainly wouldn't be able to lead a force that has been for years used to only answering unnaturally disfigured old men. It's now free for all in the whole Galaxy. I would focus the plot on just Kylo and Rey for the most part. What does the Dark Side mean to Kylo? Why does he yearn for it so? What would he do with no emperor figure to his Vader impersonation? And also, how would Rey go about securing the future for Jedi, with little formal training and no Republic resources, and mindful of Luke's failure to do just about the same thing in much better circumstances? Heck, it would even work well with Rey being Emperor's granddaughter. We'd have a Skywalker desperately trying to be a Sith poster boy, and a Palpatine trying to salvage something from the Jedi Order. History coming back as a farce. You know, let's all write a Star Wars fanfic that's better than this vapid trilogy. It's the least we can do.
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 22, 2019 1:02:06 GMT
Well, I knew it I guess. I knew they'd do that. Hey, at least they explained Snoke. I suppose.
Bringing fucking Palpatine back.
I think that the Galaxy devolving into anarchy works fine. First Order civil war makes sense because, well, it was set up in The Last Jedi. You get the idea that there are tensions when Hux considers just shooting a helpless Kylo. Hux doesn't like Kylo. Kylo doesn't like Hux. With the leadership bisected, well, yeah, you'd think that civil war would work fine in the sequel. Not just on a personal level, but at an organizational level.
However, I want something to push Kylo and Rey towards each other. Since they've got to sort this shit out, after all. Anything will do, but Kylo going after the Dark Side just makes a lot of sense.
I do think, or at least have the feeling, that some folks were thinking about bringing Palps back. They must have been. There are hints here and there, but there is also that whole part of the Expanded Universe. The Dark Empire bit. Palpyteeny comes back with a clone and does a bunch of shit. You just know they were thinking about it the whole damn time. It sounds awful. Listen to this bit of summary:
"Using the secrets of the Dark Side, Luke has created a doppelganger to trick his friends into leaving him on Byss – where, at that very moment, Luke is confronting the dying despot, and smashing the Emperor’s clone tanks with his lightsaber!
But before Luke can finish his dreadful task, the Emperor succeeds in transferring his consciousness to one of his clones, a strong and agile fifteen-year-old!
Filled with Dark Side power, the reborn Emperor engages Luke in a ferocious lightsaber duel – and ''wins''. Triumphant over his greatest adversary, the young Emperor vows to find Leia – and the Holocron – and crush the Rebellion once and for all!"
Riiiiiight.
Also, then Luke and Leia beat him and he dies.
Again.
BUT THEN:
"After perishing in battle with Luke and Leia Skywalker in Dark Empire, Emperor Palpatine was forced to occupy an inferior clone body. Unbeknownst to him, his personal physician had been suborned by Carnor Jax, backed by a number of other high-ranking Imperial personnel. The physician deliberately inserted genetic material and contaminants into all stored samples of the Emperor's original body, to the effect that these bodies will be nowhere as resistant to the ravaging effects of the dark side as the original.
The last remaining clone body undestroyed by Skywalker or traitorous Imperials were now aging rapidly, and Palpatine's final, irrevocable end was near unless he can either fix his genetic material (an impossibility since no unadulterated samples remain) or insert his spirit into another body. After consulting with ancient Sith Lords on the mausoleum planet Korriban, Palpatine learned that Han and Leia's youngest child, Anakin, is the only workable body. "
Oh god.
"After an attack on Byss, in which the second Eclipse-class Star Destroyer, the Eclipse II, was steered into the Galaxy Gun by R2-D2, and a projectile from the Gun was shot into Byss (destroying Byss utterly), Palpatine following the Solos to Onderon, then proceeded to attack Leia inside the Kira fortress, prompting Leia to fight back before realising she was no match for the Emperor. Shortly after, Luke Skywalker arrived with his fellow Jedi. Following their arrival, Rayf Ysanna was then killed by a barrage of Sith lightning, and Empatojayos Brand was mortally wounded. Skywalker, stunned that Palpatine was going for baby Anakin Solo, looked on in shock, before Sidious was then shot by a blaster bolt sent from Han Solo (which he purposely didn't block) and proceed to sadistically rush his cackling spirit towards the infant Anakin Solo, however, he was intercepted by the body of the dying Brand, who chose to make the ultimate sacrifice as he died, willingly clasping his soul to Palpatine's, ensuring that both of them would be pulled into the netherworld of the Force (In Palpatine's case, Chaos). At long last, and with the assistance of all the Jedi of the past dragging him down, Emperor Palpatine was finally and truly killed. "
So yes, Star Wars names got even fucking stupider.
And yes, it was that fucking stupid. I don't believe Rise of Skywalker can actually be worse than this shit. And yes, believe it or not, it seems most of the old fanbase would actually want this fucking trash! This is the kind of shit that made me happy to see what happened in The Last Jedi! Because it made it less likely to turn out like this trash!
And look at Luke's goddamn outfit here. What is he, an emo? Did he decide he liked his father's digs?
And since it seems to be in vogue to viciously attack Kathleen Kennedy for not doing the beloved EU shitfest, well, I'll just jump on the bandwagon and say that maybe its just that Kennedies are bad at Star Wars stuff, because that atrocity had a "Cam Kennedy" attached to it. Maybe someone saw this and saw the sequel trilogy, then time traveled to the past to kill their father... but got mixed up and shot the wrong bloke! Fucking thanks, Star Wars, it's your damn fault JFK got shot, are you fucking happy now, Star Wars? Huh?!
OH FUCK. EDIT BECAUSE OH FUCK.
So... Spoilers, but I just checked Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeev's Wookiepedia page and, uh, it mentions something something power of all the Jedi of past generations bullshit, but not in quite the same way. Whoever wrote this shit is a hack.
If you want to see, just look at the bottom of the first section. Make sure it is Canon.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2019 2:06:56 GMT
Just to clarify... Snoke is not a clone of Emperor. The Emperor just makes them in tanks and they are clones...possibly of some kind of original Snoke?
The movie seriously doesn't explain this stuff. He just reveals he made snoke and was controlling him or behidn him in some way.
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Post by Horsie on Dec 22, 2019 2:40:51 GMT
Maybe Palpatine never died? Maybe he got tossed into Death Star's reactor and lived, but for reasons of his own went into hiding? Then he used Snoke to fool would-be assassins, like some sort of weird body double that isn't a double at all.
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Post by Harkovast on Dec 22, 2019 3:18:39 GMT
Apparently the bad guys lose because they assemble their fleet of 1000 star destroyers with death star lasers on them (yes, that's real) in an atmosphere and their shields wont work in an atmosphere so they can be easily destroyed. Also becuase the planet confuses their navigation, the ships cannot leave the atmosphere without a special communication tower to guide them.
Yes, the Empire are now so dumb they literally do not know which way is up.
I assume future sequels will reveal they were in fact born yesterday, that they came down with the last shower of rain and there is one of them born every minute.
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Post by Horsie on Dec 22, 2019 3:47:26 GMT
To be fair, about 10 years ago a flight of American F-22 Raptors transferring from Hawaii to Okinawa was nearly lost when they crossed the International Date Line and a number of vital systems crashed and couldn't be reset; they lost indication of the aircraft altitude and attitude, fuel levels, navigation systems, communications, etc. The problem with modern jet aircraft is that they're really not meant to be flown totally manually, some are impossible to fly without computer assistance, so I can imagine a spaceship would be even worse, to the point that trying to take off from a planet might be difficult to do without some kind of autopilot that runs off of the navigation system.
That being said, how difficult would it be to find a planet that A) doesn't have an atmosphere, and B) doesn't fuck up their space compass?
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Post by Canuovea on Dec 22, 2019 8:05:19 GMT
Also, Palps dies the same way here as he does in Legends continuity (one of the time) when confronted by Luke and Leia: He gets fucked by his own force lightning.
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Post by StyxD on Dec 22, 2019 16:48:38 GMT
Actually, my biggest question about these 1000 star destroyers is where did Palpatine get the crew for them and what did he have them do for 30 years.
JJ Abrams: The Saga Will End Star Wars fans:
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