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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 15:47:18 GMT
It probably isn't built for combat though. Not reaaaaaly.
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 16:17:50 GMT
You thought the grapple rules in other games were complicated? Well in these ones they feature the phrase "during a grapple a rape may occur."
THAT'S A QUOTE!
"MAY OCCUR" LIKE WHOOPS SORRY I WAS TRYING TO GRAPPLE BUT THEN THERE WAS SOME RAPE, MY BAD!
Honestly, everyone should read FATAL. Its a magical, amazing thing.
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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 17:41:13 GMT
Well... I heard the 4th edition of Warhammer fantasy RPG has come out. Not the Age of Suck at one either.
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Post by StyxD on Sept 8, 2018 18:16:34 GMT
We've also started, as a culture, responding with outrage and offence to things rather than mockery. I don't think it's simply the case of people getting cranky, unfortunately. For me there are two plausible interpretations. Things like FATAL simply stopped being funny because we know now there are people who honestly fantasize about a world like this. Actually quite a lot of people. Actually quite a lot of people who won't hesitate to use lethal force against "normies" they hate. I mean, Hitler was a funny, overly theatrical short man spouting bullshit, up until the point when he murdered millions. Alternatively, we were just privileged enough to treat it as silly nonsense with no relevance to our lives. With the advent of SJ, for better or worse, we now know there were a lot of people who this wasn't ever really that funny. Although it's not really the case for FATAL itself, I think. Actually, if you think about it, the RPG fandom has been largely unmolested by the greatest culture war of this decade. No movements to keep feminism out of D&D, no outrage over unrealistic black female queer fighters being pushed down our throats, nothing. In fact, I can probably proudly say that RPG fandom is the only community outside of SJWs who live by the rule of "rape is never amusing". Not that FATAL wouldn't make a killing today. You don't actually have to play the game to flip off SJWs, you know. FATAL is more flat out hillarious because it has that sense of "is this for real?" Yeah. And nowadays, it's like "Oh, of course. Of course it's for real". I mean, I'm not actually joking about Jordan Petersen. Some of the arguments FATAL handbook provides on why it's okay to make all female characters useless line up exactly with what that very serious scholar is spouting. Just different sea animals. It probably isn't built for combat though. Not reaaaaaly. I think they were quite serious. Sexism and "git gud" elitist tryhards go hand in hand, and it's probably the results of authors being both. That said, it really is way easier to get a huge dick and go around raping everyone without consequences. Cause you know, real men will kill you in real combat! And women, well…
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 18:31:31 GMT
Yeah but we had sexists back then, its not like everyone has got more sexist against women and suddenly these things aren't ridiculous. I think we need to return to laughing at stupid shit. People with idiotic views are funny....but so are highly offended, self righteous people. The guy who wrote FATAL is funny, but if I imagine someone going "this is typical of the rape culture of rpgs" or something, they sound funny as well. I'd mock both of them.
The response to offensive material, rather than mockery, is now to become very serious...and very seriously people are funny.
I guess this is just my point of view. The idea that society is a cess put of racism and sexism that we all just recently became aware of is fairly wide spread these days, but it doesn't seem to reflect my experiences.
I think this ultra serious "that's not funny" response that's fashionable these days is counter productive. When people get a moral lecture, they want to rebel against it and do the opposite, and they want to see the lecture giver take a fall to bring them down to everyone else's level. If something is the subject of ridicule everyone wants to join in laughing at it.
They did this with Richard Spencer. He dresses in a smart suit and gets a silly hair cut and the left says hes the second coming of Hitler. They say he's so terrifying no one can listen to his persuasive arguments. We need people to punch him in the streets, its the only way to sto him! Net result? Spencer is a house hold name and a hero of the far right. The guy is a cretin and his ideas are laughable when you actually hear them (an all white nation, ruled by a hereditary king, in the Arctic where they eye ball you at the boarder to decide if you are white enough. This is seriously what he wants to happen) but instead of mocking this clown everyone takes him seriously as this existential threat and his mystique and influence grow.
I maintain that FATAL is fucking hilarious. I love the detail that the section on playing assassins is huge, cause the guy writing it clearly thinks assassins are bad ass.
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 18:48:03 GMT
Jordan Peterson is actually another good example. All the left wing responses to him have been to try to get him to shut up. He first got famous because of all the protesters saying he was a nazi and freaking out.
The best put down I've heard about Peterson was a guy who (when complained at by Peterson fans for being critical of him) sadi something like "I'm sorry but I don't need a daddy figure to tell me to brush my teeth and wipe my ass properly." What was struct me though was that the guy saying that was on the right. It was a great put down that defused him as just a pretentious self help guru selling basic life skills like its secret wisdom. I've never really heard anything funny about him from the left. Even the Kermit thing isn't really used by those who ideologically oppose him.
He's taken super seriously by his opponents and everyone gets told hes an existential threat that is TOO DANGEROUS TO LISTEN TO! Don't hear what he's got to say, its just TOO OFFENSIVE.....and now he's a house hold name with legions of followers because of course he is!
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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 19:18:43 GMT
Mockery only works in some cases but it should be brought back more often. Maybe. It is also distressingly like your typical schoolyard bullying. Mock those that are different to bring them back in line. It's only okay so long as the mocker agrees with you and the mockee represents someone you don't like.
Also I've seen more YouTube videos declaring that RPGs are now under attack by SJWs. And Archidiot (there I'm doing the mockery thing! Aaaand I'm not fully comfortable with it) had a video asking if the new Warhammer RPG is a return to form or SJW garbage. Clearly RPGs are now entering the discourse.
They'd probably avoided it because RPGs are generally up to the players. You can have various different settings and homebrewed shit to make your game as egalitarian, fascist, incel, hippie, or SJW as you want. That will probably never change no matter what. Plus most never bothered with different stats for men or women and some already have plenty of progressive shit in it. I mean Christ, Eclipse Phase and even Shadowrun to an extent.
So I dunno. We will see.
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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 19:40:10 GMT
Speaking about mockery, just saw some people flipping their shit about that Witcher character being played by a black woman/girl. Ciri or something? Also the Artemis Fowl film to a lesser extent.
Now I know that The Witcher is set in a setting based on medieval Poland (whites, whites everywhere), but it's a fiction character. That would be like getting mad about black Heimdal. Oh wait.
But that isn't the funny shit. The funny shit is that they compared this to doing a series with a Black Hitler, Transgender Goebbels (Not Goebbels being played by a trans person it seemed), new gender each day Guderian, female Speer, and so forth.
I find this legitimately funny. A complete misunderstanding of how such analogies are supposed to work.
There was a slightly more valid one about white Black Panther but it isn't quite the same thing still. And less funny.
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Post by StyxD on Sept 8, 2018 20:07:17 GMT
I find this legitimately funny. A complete misunderstanding of how such analogies are supposed to work. Polish nationalists are rather dull. All they can do with confronted with anything they dislike is regurgitate memes about how Poland suffered in World War II and because of that they're (modern nationalists) not to blamed or criticized for anything ever. Oh wait. It's exactly the same as Russian nationalists. Well, anyway, they just got their memes a bit mixed up. If you wondered what Black Hitler has to do with anything. Clearly RPGs are now entering the discourse. We'll see. There absolutely are guys just looking for a pretense to "defend" another medium from "SJWs". That didn't go over so well when they set their sights on metal music. Warhammer RPG is also a specific case due to being at least a tangential target of interest for the wargaming Warhammer fandom. And we all know it attracts rightists much more (by now, if Age of Sigmar sucks it's probably because of feminists and because women can now be Ground Marines, just a guess). Mockery only works in some cases but it should be brought back more often. Maybe. It is also distressingly like your typical schoolyard bullying. Mock those that are different to bring them back in line. It's only okay so long as the mocker agrees with you and the mockee represents someone you don't like. Yeah, it's true, but what other choice do we have? With most of these people discussion is pointless. Either we'll make these views socially unacceptable again, or the threat will keep escalating. Granted, I'm not sure if mockery is going to work. Nor am I sure if alarmism is going to work. So what do I know. While I mostly agree with you here, Hark, keep in mind that it's possible to successfully laugh at stuff if it isn't terrifying you at the same time. Many people are terrified. And with most of society kind of shrugging and treating this as no big deal, it's understandable, if not very effective, that people are desperately trying to bring attention to how dangerous these views are if extremists were to actually act on them. And I have no doubt that they will if they will think it's possible. Again: this may seem funny, but people were ruined and murdered in the name of much, much more absurd and ridiculous ideals.
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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 20:14:16 GMT
Look at Columbine. You've got a bunch of people ignoring obvious hints and then, lo and behold, school shooting.
And many equate mocking to basically be ignoring.
Plus, hard to mock something like the L'Ecole Polytechnique shooting. These people would certainly love to act on the things we find it so funny.
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 20:51:16 GMT
I think the bullying that comes with "this person is evil! His ideas are dangerous! He must be stopped!" is goign to be worse than what comes with "this guys an idiot! hahha look how dumb his ideas are!"
Though don't bully people. No bullying, please.
I don't think it matters what race the characters are in something, especially a fantasy thing. But that works both ways. IF I can make the witcher and have them be black, I should be able to make Black Panther in white-kanda (though maybe not call it that!) It needs to be a two way street. If the race of a character doesn't matter, it has to not matter regardless. Once it becomes a double standard then the debate is lost. People freaking hate double standards.
The whole SJW vs anti SJW thing is everywhere now. That's just life.
On the Total War forum someone said they didn't want Araby becuase its sterotypical and racist and there were a load of "keep that SJW shit out of here!" comments immediately below it.
Its a shame because while some SJW shit is...well...sjw shit (or Baizou as they call it in China...yes they have a word for it. It means "white left"), it would be nice to be able to have reaonable conversations about representation and diversity and stuff without it immediately degenerating into insults and accusations from all sides.
But then again I'd also like a diamond horse that poops magic fire arms, and these days that might be more likely.
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Post by StyxD on Sept 8, 2018 21:11:47 GMT
On the Total War forum someone said they didn't want Araby My brain completely short-circuited on this sentence because "Araby" is sort of a slur for Arabs in Polish, so I interpreted this as something to the effect or "we don't want those damn immigrants in our game!" and had to read three times to comprehend you're talking about the land. See? I'm trying to treat things with humor. Ha ha. IF I can make the witcher and have them be black, I should be able to make Black Panther in white-kanda (though maybe not call it that!) I don't think the analogy works because Wakanda being natively African is a core idea of Black Panther. The concept just won't work without that. Granted, I never really liked the concept of Black Panther (can't speak about the execution). It just reeks of "Hey, white guilt exist, so have a super-secret advanced African nation to show how we believe Africans can do better than failed states (so long as we give them magical rocks)". A better analogy would be a Black Gandalf… wait, you can't have Black Gandalf since he's already White. Whew. So maybe Black Aragorn. There. Perfect. But really, my concern is that there will only be Black Aragorn and Asian Frodo and that's it for representation. They won't bother to adjust ethnicity of any of the nations, they'll just pepper some token people until it looks more like MURICA, cause MURICA is all there is. Sorry, it's late and I'm cranky from all this discussion.
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 22:01:32 GMT
You could have there be white people in Wakanda. Maybe they went there years ago before it was sealed off, maybe Wakanda poeple have their own racial groups.
Don't get me wrong, I WOULD NOT do that, its stupid.
But to me that's the same kidn of thing as wanting modern American racial diversty in Kingdom Come deiverance or something.
I could contrive Wakanda or medieval Europe or anything else to be racially diverse and if I want to do that in my creation, I think that's fair enough. And if I don't want to, that's also fair enough.
Okay the thing you said of the one guy that's a different race reminds me of the best movie ever made... BATTLEFIELD EARTH!
There is this caveman human tribe and there is just one black guy in there (there might be two as I think a second black guy might die later on, I would have to check) How, after 1000 years as a tribe, do they have just one or two black guys? How the fuck does that work? Are they racially segregated and the black line has almost died off? Are the black people inbreeding? How stupid are these film makers? (God I love that film!)
I think all this focus on the race of characters is getting unhealthy in popular culture. Like people were making a big deal that star trek discovery had a black woman. We already had a black woman in the first series! And weve had a black cpatain and a woman captain since. I heard one guy describe it as taping the glass ceiling back together so we can pretend to break it again. It makes every minority of woman character feel like an agenda or token, rather than just the best person who happened to be of those groups.
Don't be unhappy about this kind of thing, I think its going to change. Things got a bit crazy but it will swing the other way.
IF I seem sometimes callous when I talk abotu this stuff, its becuase I'm thinking in terms of what works and what doesn't. Everyone has the right to be angry or scared etc, but I am just looking at things in terms of what will get results. I guess I see too much stuff failing horribly these days I'm sick of it. I want some success.
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Post by Canuovea on Sept 8, 2018 22:04:38 GMT
White Black Panther is less workable because the character being black is very much a part of it. Certainly more than even LOTR which does have racial undertones.
Also of course you wouldn't have a problem with Araby, Hark, look at your comic. A haven of horrible cultural appropriation! Ugh! You've made the Turks camels for crying out loud! How dare you!
...Well, I'm not really bothered by that personally but I bet some folks would be.
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Post by Harkovast on Sept 8, 2018 22:07:44 GMT
So what about them RPGs, eh?
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